 Poster: A snowHead
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First one - mountain/uphill pole should be dragged on the snow at roughly 45 degrees to the side of you. There is a subconscious sensory thing that happens that helps your brain work out the steepness of the slope (and can check your speed) - or something like that. It helps anyway, I don't know why. watch the slalom skiers on the TV, they always drag their poles.
Second thing - move your head and your feet will follow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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erica2004, have you tried the "both poles touching snow all the time" exercise yet?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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erica2004, sorry - I don't buy either of those. But I am not an instructor, and am almost certainly wrong.
Most of the skiers I see whose skiing I admire manage to keep their shoulders and head pointing down the fall line, whilst their feet angulate and rotate appropriately. And skiing steep stuff you often need your poles out in front of you. The minute I drag a pole, uphill shoulder goes back, head follows the feet and I ski badly.
Am I missing something?
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stoatsbrother, steep fall line skiing im with you, gotta be looking downhill otherwise i stick and then slide forever... although big GS type turns can have you looking like a bit of a c*ck if you wish to look downhill at all times!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not being a 'pro' either this may be complete tosh, but I think the inside pole dragging you see is more a side effect of inclination than something the racers actively try to do. I try to keep my inside pole off the snow, but feel it dragging when not well balanced over my feet.
Dragging the tip of the outside pole is a good excersize IMO, much like the one suggested by comprex.
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erica2004, Dragging the inside pole isn't deliberate by slalom racers and isn't something that we teach to them.
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I often drag the uphill pole and think this is a bad thing to get out of 
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stoatsbrother, This is what I was originally taught 'face the valley'. But if you watch good skiers closely, you'll find that they ski with their uphill pole on the snow. The technique, if done correctly, doesn't cause any adjustment in your body position.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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erica2004, I can see what you say makes sense for freeride/GS long turns, but not for bumps or steep stuff.
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stoatsbrother, Yes, different. I'm talking about carving technique on piste. Then again these Arlberg instructors may be wrong. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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here's one where I seem to be putting a fair amount of pressure on the pole which is dragging in the snow:
I'm sure that can't be healthy!
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Aren't the Vist suit pictures less recent than the SL gate one?
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You know it makes sense.
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I've been told off by instructors for doing it. (But then I've been told off for doing most things  .)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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comprex, Yes, the Vist suit photos were last season, the SL gates a month ago. Thanks you for spotting the hip - I've worked hard on that 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| watch the slalom skiers on the TV, they always drag their poles |
Can't agree. If they ever do drag it's definitely not part of the plan. I was always aware that I needed to pick that inside hand up in early readiness for the next plant and to help, among other things, in keeping the eyeline horizontal.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| erica2004 wrote: |
Second thing - move your head and your feet will follow. |
This one is common to many sports, and probably something you're told on day one of your first lesson, especially when everyone's looking down at their skis! It's a useful tip to remind yourself of as you're skiing, particularly looking down the hill and planning your course.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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i vote for no on both accounts
dragging inside pole normally means you are leaning back/uphill rather then getting forward/downhill like you want. and its important to have 'separation' of upper and lower body, ie you head and shoulders should be pointing down the fall line as much as possible while your feet and legs change directions.
i am not an instructor either, but these are things i have been taught.
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I was always taught that you should be generally facing in the direction in which you're travelling. In large radius turns this will be square over the skis, in short radius turns, it'll be facing generally down the hill.
Dragging your inside pole would generally, to me be something to avoided, as it means that I'm dropping my shoulder, and not punching through my pole plant.
Can't believe that I've voluntarily entered into a BZK discussion.
rob@rar, I catch myself doing that as well from time to time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dragging the pole is something I do all the time, it's like a security blanket and I'm always being told off for it 
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| Kramer wrote: |
| I was always taught that you should be generally facing in the direction in which you're travelling. In large radius turns this will be square over the skis, in short radius turns, it'll be facing generally down the hill. |
You see you are an instructor at heart. A very simple bit of advice, worth its weight in gold to some.
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Aw shucks. 
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I can see someone getting the advice erica2004 got.
That someone would probably be starting from a very banked stance in turns, the uphill shoulder dropping to the snow, the wrist cocked forward so that, when the hand is in front of the navel, the pole basket is behind the bottom.
Sticking the pole out to the side might actually cue that someone to lift that uphill shoulder off the snow for fear of grabbing and catching consequences. It might even prompt them into having more of a sideways break at the waist and hips.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex, I was holding this pole with my wrist bent so the pole was higher in the air - to get ready for the next turn. But with me holding pole as above, it really helped, especially as the light faded. The ski instructor also pointed out countless skiers who hold their poles as above. If I'd have done this a couple of years ago, I'm sure my pole would have caught in my skis. Now, I think, I could hold a broom handle and do this. Perhaps a witch's broomstick. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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erica2004, Oh, you were telegraphing your next turn with your pole way before it happened, gotcha. Yep, that could make for problems; I remember how much work I had to do to get rid of the pernicious habit.
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erica2004, I'm starting to see the benefit of the pole advice you received, especially given the level and type of skiing you were working on. Was it a light touch that was desired, i.e the pole tip just gracing the snow, as opposed to a heavier 'dragging' myself and possibly others have felt when off balance to the inside?
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You know it makes sense.
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balernoStu, It's a light touch. Comprex had it right, it must be a consequence of skiing correctly. The fact was, I was (making an effort to) holding the pole in the air in an abnormal position. I'm not very good at explaining. rab@rar is doing it in the photos above and he thinks it's wrong, but I don't think it is. For me, it made a difference. I always turn my head as Kramer said above, but the ski instructor was advocating turning your head earlier - before the end of one arc and the starting of the other.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, OT I know, but I just wanted to say that those are great shots of you skiing, esp. the two closer up ones - I don't know who took them, but they are great shots considering that it doesn't look like you were hanging round.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| maggi wrote: |
| I've been told off by instructors for doing it. (But then I've been told off for doing most things .) |
Ditto. I have been told on several occasions to keep the pole out of the snow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Helen Beaumont, no one pill for everybody. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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comprex, absolutely.
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I now read these threads just to feel extra good about snowboarding 
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Having just read thorugh this thread, I'll venture a few thoughts. Erica was given a specific point regarding what her instructor saw at the time would help her and I suspect the advice about the uphill pole was to achieve something in her posture rather than a "must do" technique to be applied generally: the angle of your pole will vary according to speed, slope and how much you are inclining etc. Dragging your pole in the snow to reduce speed? Definitely not and I doubt there is any other value in it. Like others in the thread, I don't like it when I realise I'm doing it. Feels untidy and I suspect it could mean my uphill shoulder is behind and I have lost balance a bit. (One way out of that, by the way, is a double pole plant to help square yourself up again). I have to say I am quite confused by the mentions of the uphill pole in terms of preparing for your next pole plant
Some of the comments about facing down the slope could confuse. The amount of 'separation' (the extent to which legs and feet rotate from the hips under the upper body ) will vary from a great deal when skiing short radius turns down the fall line to none when making wide radius turns. The skiers Stoatsbrother admires for keeping their head and shoulders facing down the slope while their legs work rotational magic beneath them will be doing short radius turns down narrow corridor: the same skiers will have their upper bodies following the line of their skis in wide turns in a wider corridor (look at the picture in Comprex's posting and at Rob@rar's photos). In other words it varies according to what you are doing. Kramer puts it neatly :"I was always taught that you should be generally facing in the direction in which you're travelling. In large radius turns this will be square over the skis, in short radius turns, it'll be facing generally down the hill." Separation on wide turns will weaken your turn. You can check this out at home. Take up a skiing stance with something to one side to support you . Incline and tilt your feet as if in a turn, keeping your shoulders straight ahead. Look down, begin to turn your shoulders "downhill" and see how the tilt of your feet lessens. Other things happen too, but that's the most obvious and the most telling.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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cfl : I agree with what you say. Anyone doing long sweeping turns with their head straight down hill looks distinctly retro. I am still totally unconvinced about the pole advice in any scenario. I think erica has been given advice specific to her situation. Kramer does indeed describe that well, and I overstated the opposite case to what erica was told
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I think some thought should be given to how the pole is gripped. I have often despaired at how few fellow instructors teach their students how to strap and hold the pole correctly.
The hand should enter the strap from underneath, and then placed on the pole trapping the root of the strap under the palm of the hand and between the thumb and index finger. The pole should then be gripped firmly with the thumb and forefinger and the remaining three (assuming you have a full compliment) should be used to guide the pole back and forwards in a good swinging motion for the pole planting (but then again not swinging wildly). If the pole then brushes on the snow it will do so lightly and no harm is done and if you feel there is a benefit, then it's OK in my book. I would prefer if you didn't do it, but I do it too when I ski very demanding terrain and want to 'feel the snow'.
If you allow the strap to wrap over the back of your hand and loop around your wrist, or not put it on at all, then you are forced to grip the pole much tighter. If it then touches the snow, because of your tight grip, you will undoubtedly be putting pressure on the snow and that is not good. I've seen some people putting so much pressure on their pole I think they might fall over if you took it away.
Always strap your poles as above (1st paragraph). There are other very good reasons for using this grip. If I haven't convinced you above, I could expand on them.
Skiday
(former Tirol ski instructor {7 years})
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FAQ
is an 
depends on the terrain. Far higher than that, even shoulder level, in powder or bumps or on truly steep. Far more forward with speed, after all, that's what's -behind- you.
