 Poster: A snowHead
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brian,
I think the guy was a pretty hot shot skier himself who tumbled over the cliff...Coombes just went down to have a look at the situation, as I read it, and went over as well. I don't know if this is an absolute version or best guess by some informed people.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Caspar, I agree it doesn't (I deal with subtle and not so subtle objective and subjective risk assessments for both myself and multiple other individuals every one of my working days), but if it's so out of step with the crowd then that must be considered. I consider stuff like free climbing, truly extreme skiing, train surfing to be unacceptable risks because of the demonstrably high risk of dying. If you consider yourself a rock or island fine, it's your life, but I think if you care for others the risk that they will suffer your loss should be unacceptable unless your risk assessment is flawed or, how do I put this nicely, a social eccentric.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is a debate that sometimes crops up even amongst skiers who take more risks than the average - for instance, on TGR, about Jamie Pierre.
I admire them for their courage. I don't think it's for us to say, on behalf of their families, how they should lead their lives. (Though I'll admit JP does seem to have a screw loose).
The other thing is that what looks like madness to us normal skiers might actually be a much more reasonable risk for a top athlete.
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brian
brian
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Also, it's not totally beyond the bounds of possibility that their partners were attracted to them in part because of their free spirit and adventurous outlook on life. Perhaps changing them into someone more risk averse might not be ideal ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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horizon, brian, Totally agree
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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brian, that's as may be but I'm sure if handed a stark choice in the cold light of day they'd come round
horizon, as a cohort I'd say their risk assessment would be right only if they didn't then have such a high death rate
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slikedges, what is the death rate amongst extreme skiers?
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davidof, thank you, as ever, for some sanity in a world gone mad and littered with vertically exceptional equine quadrupeds carrying members of this forum.
p.s. nice use of Latin. te saluto
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| zammo wrote: |
| ... vertically exceptional equine quadrupeds ... |
Big horses?
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| barry wrote: |
| Doug Coombes, Shane McConkey, Seth Morrison, Glen Plake among the guys in the vid. all top pros so good luck to them, I dont think it's for us (or me at least) to say anything other than "holy shite" when we see their antics. criticism as to their sanity or common sense is not for any of us to say. Doug Coombes died a couple of years back skiing. Their lives, their professions. The fact that we wouldnt dream of doing anything like that - be it because of lack of ability or more abundance of common sense and self-preservation instinct orwhat ever doesnt mean we should criticise those that have the ability and choose to do so. Part of me wishes i had the ability to do these things and live my life that way but i know i never will. Darwin awards are reserved for idiots who have no idea of the consequnces of their action and lack any semblance of ability in a given situation - fair enough anyone other than a top pro that would consider doing this kind of thing would be a front runner for such an award |
I'm inclined to agree with this view. I don't believe we should be "hand-wringing" over issues like this. As long as their actions don't directly put the lives of others at risk then they should be free to pursue an activity that clearly allows them to feel alive.
That is NOT the same as suggesting that it is an arguement for people to abandon the law or conduct themselves in morally questionable behaviour, before someone jumps on that little bandwagon!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, probably high ones
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Caspar wrote: |
| rob@rar, probably high ones |
Doh! Of course 
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Arno, I don't know but if I could be bothered to look I'm sure it would be prettty high amongst the true extreme skiers. Do you really think this unlikely?
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brian
brian
Guest
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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slikedges, just seems a bit funny to criticise someone's risk assessment when you don't actually have any figures to show how risky it is. i've no idea how risky it is compared with, say, my own skiing activities. i reckon i'm much more likely to have relatively minor injuries (ie up to broken bones/torn ligaments) due to my relative lack of skill and fitness; if one of them has a problem, it's much more likely to lead to a really serious injury or death. but they're less likely to have a problem because they are highly skilled technically and in risk assessment. throw all that onto your risk map and i'm not sure which you should be worrying about more 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
For me its like base jumping, free diving, and other extreme sports. People know there is a good chance they may die and it is their choice. If my wife were to take it up now, then I would be must upset. If my kids were to take it up it would be awful because I would worry so, and miss them so much if anything happened.
Would that make me selfish, or them? |
It would them selfish.
Human relationships rely on sacrifice and compromise.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rayscoops wrote: |
live hard, cause hell, die young - some people live by this ideal and it is their choice  and not for us to judge, unless they are our sons/brothers/sisters etc. |
I absolutely agree. 'Brainless gits' was not the best choice of epithet on my part, although I do wonder if they all fully think through the implications of their choice to 'live the dream.' (Actually, maybe it's not a free choice at all, but an addiction to extreme risk, which like any addiction, is not susceptible to rationalisation.) I strongly believe that people should be free to live their lives exactly as they please, so long as this causes no harm to others. I was merely arguing the case for the 'others'. And don't tell me that's not my place - it's as much my place to argue for their families as it is for some of you to argue for the skiers themselves.
Frosty the Snowman, really interesting question. It's easy to say that, as things stand, your wife would be selfish to take up a sport with a high risk of leaving your children without a mother. As for your children taking it up, it will depend on their circumstances at the time, but I would suggest that ignoring your feelings in the matter would, again, be selfish. It would be most unselfish of you to swallow your concern and endorse your children's decision to anything with their lives, even if it is likely to cause their early death: if you can make them believe that the choice is theirs, that they shouldn't take your feelings into account, that your happiness will consist of seeing them fulfil themselves, in whatever manner, well that would be sorted - everyone happy and guilt-free. Is life that simple?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| horizon wrote: |
| The other thing is that what looks like madness to us normal skiers might actually be a much more reasonable risk for a top athlete. |
This is undoubtedly the case, but even if they are less likely to have an accident than an average skier on say, a blue slope, the cost of their accident, when it happens, will likely be far greater.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Many here seem to forget that WE, snow skiers, are just as much "idiots" and perfect "candidates for Darwin awares" in the eye of non-skiers.
Stop judging others harshly, for you will be judged even more harshly by others.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Awesome film, have just ordered it!
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And having read a little more of the thread - consider how many people put their live ever so slightly closer to the line just to allow us all to enjoy our passion? I had a very good friend who died blowing an avalanche so the lift company could open a few runs and not pay out ticket insurance.
Extreme? I'd say so. Hero? Unquestionably. Do I think he would ever not have done what he did? No.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
abcIt is not to be compared with the sport pursued by most  s. |
Not in terms of what is physically (and possibly mentally) required perhaps. But there is a comparision with say, a 1 day novice deciding to do a black run in flat light in terms of risk, not just to himself, but more likely others. I know which one of the two gets my goat and causes (some) anxiety.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hurtle, oh, yes, still miss him. One of those people who light up a room by walking into it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle, yep. but - on the positive side, he did light up a fair few rooms! 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
The basis of this discussion is the extreme risk of certain death if something goes even slightly wrong. It is not to be compared with the sport pursued by most s
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Have you talked to them? How do you know it's "certain death"? It may only LOOK that way. I do remember a clip that's often re-played on TV in one "extreme skiing" competition in Alaska. A skier rag-dolled all the way down a very steep slope. But he lived to talk about it.
To non-skiers, a slip of your edge on snow may also means certain death, if it happen near the edge of a piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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abc, fine, whatever you say, it's no more dangerous than skiing on the edge of a piste.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| Awesome film, have just ordered it! |
From where? I was trying to find somewhere to buy it but couldn't?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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interesting debating the risks but strangely the skiers look a lot more in control than most that post here on snowheads going down a tricky black i would assume
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| .......without risks there is no adventure and life is about adventure......... |
Sums it up quite well for me. Great film.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It seems to me that the arguments are similar to say the Isle of Man TT. Racers know the risks and try and manage them, in the same way that extreme skiers and base jumpers do. They do all they can to reduce the risks so that they come out the other side. They certainly don't have a death wish.
However sometimes you can just be unlucky and circumstance conspire against you. But that can happen what ever you are doing, however safe the activity. Gus Scott's terrible accident at the TT a couple of years ago is such an example and I suspect Doug Coombs was similarly unlucky.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Scottland, Im afraid I was lying...am definitely going to order it once it hits the DVD shelves though!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have no concern with professional skiers choosing to set off avalanches as they ski in very controlled conditions, if that's what they want to do.
My only concern may be that others of lesser skill may see the film and try and emulate them.
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I'm a skier and a climber. I am privileged to count amongst my friends guys who operate at the highest levels of both "extreme" skiing, and climbing/mountaineering, and have been involved in cutting edge first ascents all over the world. None of these people have a death wish. In fact they all cling tenaciously to life so they can keep doing the things they enjoy. Yes the risks may be higher, but it is possible to introduce some control over these risks.
Without getting too long-winded I would simply remind people of how steep and dangerous a black run looks when you're a green run skier (witness the crowds at the top of the Saulire cable car in Courchevel commenting on the madness of people heading along what is actually an easy ridge). Now take this and apply it to your average red/black run skier watching someone ski a 50 degree slope. It looks insane and hugely dangerous. Yes the consequences start to mount up, but it is possible to ski these slopes with safety.
In every sport which involves risks there are always people who will push to find the limits, and a few who will push too far, or just run out of luck, but the world would be a far duller place without them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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offpisteskiing, good to have your perspective and completely agree with all of that, but you acknowledge what anyone not trying to take a position will acknowledge - that the risks are higher whoever you are ie the best of the best of the professionals die doing it - we're not talking recreational extreme "light" here. The question then is if having dependants should influence participation. I think it should, but each to his own.
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slikedges, seconded. Thanks, offpisteskiing.
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