Jo66 - ski boot fitting saga

A snowHead

edited due to the need for this post being removed by another edit by another person Toofy Grin

A snowHead

Latest update:
Sadly I wasn't able to make it all the way to Bicester to visit CEM, due to family commitments. However I took all of his good advice, from this thread, several PMs and a phone call, and went to Ellis Brigham in Manchester yesterday. I was in the shop for over 3 hours. A young chap called Jake served me and he did all the right things - measured my feet (25.5 not 27.5!), spotted the width & high instep straight away, noticed I have relatively narrow ankles in comparison to the width of my feet. He remoulded the footbeds that Danny at M&M had made for me - needless to say they weren't done properly! He increased the instep moulding and added heel stabilisers. He then had me try on 5 different models of boot with the footbeds. I stood in each boot for a good 10-15 mins, even if they were uncomfortable so I could understand where each boot was hurting and why. I ended up buying a pair of Head Edge + 10 boots - one of the boots them CEM suggested. Jake stretched the width on both boots for me. And Ellis Brigham offer a guarantee where you can go back as often as you need for modifications up to 3 years after buying and they will even swap boots for a new pair if all else fails.
So now I'm going to wear the boots around the house as much as possible before I go away on 11Jan!!
Many thanks to everyone on this forum for their advice, especially CEM,
Now to sell the other boots! I'll advertise them on here and ebay this afternoon. Anyone need a pair of Salomon Irony 7 CF in 27.5 ?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Jo66, Have you ever thought about using the Irony boots like bricks and throwing them through M&M's windows with a paper death threat tied around them .... (this is a joke by the way rather than a suggestion) Laughing

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plectrum,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Jo66, good to hear it's all sorted out. Hope you get a sizeable whack of your money back for the Salomons!

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Please remember there are often 2 sides to a story

Jo66, pam w, doctor_eeyorem, CEM, minx, smallzookeeper, roga, spyderjon, wear The Fox Hat, Nick L, Spyderman, TallTone, rungsp, nbt, eng_ch, 666, plectrum

Dear all, my name is Danny and I am the owner of Mountain & Marine in Poynton. I have just been made aware of this discussion forum today, by an e-mail from someone who quoted this site as a reason why they will not be buying a jacket from my shop. Although I am extremely disturbed to receive this e-mail, I am at least thankful for them bringing this to my attention.

I am very disappointed and upset with the way Jo has reported what has happened in this instance. Many of the comments you have all made are excellent advice but some are simply OUTRAGEOUS given that you only have one side of this story from Jo. I hope that you will read all of my post and bear with my ramblings – apologies for the length, but this is not something that I can respond to in a few sentences when the reputation of my business is potentially being trashed throughout the world via the internet.

First, let me clarify that Mountain & Marine does NOT “only sell one ski brand”. We had / have in stock Salomon, Nordica, Technica and Head ski boots and Salomon, Volkl and Head skis. We also have the ability to order in several other brands. We are working hard to update our website but at present Salomon is the only ski hardware brand we have listed fully for the 07-08 season.

Second, let me apologise in some way to Jo. I have now read all the comments very carefully since her first message which I think was posted 12th Dec. I have also reviewed the notes I made on her order form from May when she purchased the boots. Jo’s initial comments in her posts are quite fair and reasonable and had I read these prior to or had them explained to me in a calm way during our telephone conversations on 19th and 20th Dec, things may have turned out very differently.

Jo first telephoned the shop to advise us of this problem on Sun 16th Dec when I was not there. Jo’s post to this forum on this day accurately reflects what happened - the person she spoke to listened to her concerns / complaint and said that we “always endeavour to do something to help” and that she would be called by me the next day asap when I was available.

Jo’s next post dated Thurs 20th Dec is where things start to get out of hand. Jo’s comments are a distortion of what was said and the manner in which they were said. I view these as certainly misleading and inaccurate and possibly libellous. I know Jo was very angry at the end of our conversation but this is no excuse for writing distortions and half truths to be circulated round the world.

I know the following may be a little long winded but I think it is absolutely crucial that people have more detail of what actually happened before judging my decision and ultimately my professionalism.

Jo states “after many phone calls to the shop” “and being given the run around, I finally got to speak to the so-called bootfitter today”.

The week before xmas is clearly a busy period for any retail shop, we are no exception. Unfortunately I was not able to contact Jo the next day on the Monday as promised by my member of staff. I asked another member of staff to call her on the Tuesday morning to apologise, explain that I would next be in on the Thursday and would it be possible for this to wait until then. To be accurate, Jo actually called the shop first on the Tuesday to get this message. She was clearly not satisfied with waiting till Thursday and insisted she speak with me asap. I telephoned Jo from my mobile on the Wednesday and apologised for the situation but explained that I was not in the shop and I was not really in a position to talk to her about it at length (I was actually shopping on my only day off before xmas). I asked when she was going away skiing and she said after xmas. I asked if she would be able to come to the shop with the boots to discuss the situation. She said this would be very difficult given her work commitments. Although she was quite angry about not being able to talk to me further and the fact that I was not prepared to authorise a refund there and then, she accepted that it could wait until Thursday when I was back in the shop. I was quite surprised at how aggressive Jo was during this call. Basically, all the information I had at this point was that she had purchased the boots in early May, heavily discounted in the sale, she had recently had a problem with them while skiing and had been told that they were at least 2 sizes too big but that they caused great pain at the sides of her feet. The first time the shop was made aware of any problem was by telephone only 3 days ago and this was a Sunday. Given all of this I clearly needed to investigate further and speak to her properly.

When I spoke to Jo on Thursday I again apologised for the delay in getting back to her properly and she apologised to me for being so aggressive on the telephone the previous day. I immediately said that we would always try to do something with customers who had a problem with boots and we started to discuss the problem. It is often difficult, even for small retailers to remember exactly what happened with a particular customer and given the alleged problem (i.e. grossly misfitted boots) I was very keen for Jo to come into the shop with the boots to help remember her and to verify the fit. This apparently was a real problem for Jo and during the course of the conversation she quickly became more aggressive in nature, insisting that she was “legally entitled to a full refund” because in her opinion (and others she had asked) there was nothing that could be done with the boots and they had been mis-sold to her. I explained that I would need her to come into the shop with the boots to come to a final decision but because they had been purchased in the sale over 8 months ago and that they had been used (even if only for a short time) a full refund MAY not be possible. I said that I would CERTAINLY offer any or a combination of the following:-

1. Meet her in the shop and discuss further / see what could be done with the boots.
2. Look at a new pair of boots for her at a discounted price.
3. Sell her boots for her in the shop and give her all the money
4. Let her get fitted for boots elsewhere and I would then source the boots and sell them to her at a discount.
5. Suggested selling them on e-bay

Ultimately Jo insisted that I agree to a refund over the phone and I said that “AT THIS STAGE I was not prepared to agree to a refund, certainly not without her coming back into the shop with the boots”. By now Jo was really quite aggressive and she threatened to tell many people that Mountain & Marine do not know what they are doing and have terrible customer service. I calmly explained that I thought she should be very careful with this and that if she was not happy with any of my suggestions of a way forward (which included coming in to the shop!) then she obviously had the right to write to me further, contact the office of fair trading and / or pursue legal action, but that I was not prepared to offer her anything further during the call.

Jo has written in her post “He insists he has done nothing wrong – he says he’s been fitting boots for 15 years, that there is no need to measure feet, that a shell check without the liner is a waste of time, that it is perfectly normal to go 1 or 2 sizes bigger to get the width needed etc etc”.

This is a clear distortion of our conversation.

Many people that have posted on this topic clearly know about boot fitting and have given Jo some excellent advice. However, when Jo tried to explain these things to me over the telephone she was quite aggressive and fragmented in what she was saying. She was trying to force me to agree over the telephone there and then that the boots had been incorrectly fitted and to a full refund. I was trying to explain that this was POSSIBLY but not NECESSARILY the case and that she should return to the shop with the boots. Jo stated to me that any boot fitter has got to measure the feet and has got to perform a shell test, implying that these alone will automatically result in a comfortable boot for everyone. She also talked about a shop she had been to with a sophisticated machine which measured the foot by enclosing it from all angles. I was very specific with my comments, explaining that measuring feet and shell tests are a guide (a very useful guide) but that it is not an exact science. If you measure someone as a size 26 it does not necessarily mean that that is the ONLY size for them in any model or make of boot for a good fit and furthermore that you do not necessarily have to be measured with a sophisticated machine. SOMETIMES checking someone’s shoe size can be just as useful as a START to the fitting process as a whole. In a similar vein my comment about shell testing she has picked up on was that I have seen and heard of many shell tests performed because staff are told they have got to, but that they often don’t really understand it – rendering the test useless. Also that some types of boot liners are thicker than others and that this should be borne in mind. I also mentioned that it is quite normal for some people to be one size in one type of boot and another size in different model and make of boot. In this type of Salomon boot the .5 sizes are actually the same length as the .0 sizes but that they are 5mm wider.

Jo’s quote “He says that I left the shop happy and thinks that I should have contacted him months ago if there was a problem” is taken out of context. I was trying to explain to her that I MAY not be able to offer a full refund in this instance because this is the first time I have been made aware of any problem with the boots and the fact that she has now used the boots. I explained that if the boots had not been used I would almost certainly have offered a full refund even on the telephone. I always suggest to customers that they wear the boots as much as possible in the house before they go away and let us know if they encounter any problems.

Jo does not mention in this post that I actually DID measure her feet during the 3 hours or so (over her 2 visits), despite mentioning that she thought I did in her post dated Fri 14th Dec. Neither does she mention that we did try several other types and indeed smaller boots, or her desire to get a “bargain” in the sale in May when the range of boots available was understandably limited. The Irony CF is a relatively wide / leisure fit, I did suggest that the Siam range might be better for a wider front foot. Most importantly of all she does not mention anywhere that I was concerned about increasing the boot size to accommodate her wider foot and was specifically asking whether her heel and ankle was held firm in the larger boot. This was not a quick process nor was it totally haphazard guesswork as she implies. The boots were actually ordered in from Salomon on a sale or return basis because we did not have that size in stock. Eventually, Jo left the shop happy with the boots without any mention of pain / numbness or heel lift when asked. There is a phrase that I use in some form with almost every boot customer, essentially it is “a ski boot that is too small and causes any pain is obviously not right but a ski boot that is too big can also cause serious problems”.

From some of the comments I have read I accept that it seams LIKELY that in this case the boots were not the most appropriate for Jo’s feet. However, without having had the chance to reassess the boots with Jo in the shop I can not be CERTAIN. I stand by my decision at the time of the phone call, given what I believed to be an unnecessary aggressive attitude and a strange reluctance to return to the shop with the boots unless I agreed to offer a full refund.

For the record we regularly measure people’s feet for ski boots and sometimes perform shell tests. I particularly thank CEM for his balanced comments and I am considering using shell tests more in future.

Jo mentions towards the end of her post on 20th Dec that she feels “anything from rational right now”. I would ask her to think long and hard about what she has actually written and what I have written and to think back to our 2 telephone conversations. Her one sided comments have quickly escalated into others suggesting how best to “drag [my] name and the name of the shop through the mud” and “using the Irony boots like bricks and throwing them through M&M’s windows with a paper death threat tied around them”, albeit the latter was referred to as a joke. No matter what the accusation, with only one side to a story this is starting to get very serious.

Despite all the above, I am pleased that Jo has apparently found a pair of boots that are comfortable for her and a good fit. I am a very experienced skier and I have a real passion for the sport. Like most experienced skiers I know that boots are the most important piece of kit. Skiing is not a cheap sport and if your feet are not happy, you are not likely to enjoy yourself fully, which in my opinion is a real shame.

I will be contacting Jo seperately. However, I would welcome any comments you may have via this forum, e-mail or phone.

I hope you all get to ski this year and enjoy what looks like the best snow in many years. I wish everyone a safe and exciting season.

Danny

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Danny P, Welcome to snowHead

s (even if it's not for the happiest of reasons). I'm pleased that you have found the thread and have had the opportunity to respond.

I hope that between you both you can find a satisfactory resolution and that as a result Jo might edit the thread title and early posts to say that the situation has been resolved. If she agrees that your explanation of events is correct, it would be nice of Jo to post accordingly.

After all it is free

Danny P, welcome. That's sounds like a very fair and balanced response.

Danny P, it's interesting to hear the other side of the story. I hope that you and Jo come to agreement over the dispute.

Also welcome to the site and I hope as a passionate skier you will be making other contributions to the forum! snowHead

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Danny P, Welcome to Snowheads

Your post must havetaken a lot of time and effort to compose and made for a very interesting read. As above I hope an amicable solution can be found.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Danny P, irrespective of whether you and Jo ever agree on the resolution, I think it's good that you've responded publicly to what was, after all, a very public disagreement. Let's hope you can all make up...

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I bet there isn't an experienced boot fitter in the world who hasn't had customer problems and there's no boot fitter who can give every customer the perfect fit everytime.

Props to CEM and Danny P for not being drawn into the slagging match often seen when bootfitters comment on each others work or about each others in general.

Danny P, Do you sell skiboots? Twisted Evil

You know it makes sense.

Danny P, My boot throw was a joke and stated as such. If you want it deleted then I will do so immediately. We are the generation that laughs at 'Shameless' on TV.

In terms of other comments, it is a net forum and free ideas and views are permitted. In response to your post though:

It is easy as pie to update an e-commerce site. So if you have more skis than just Saloman I would like to see them listed online, (with or without pictures but this is also easy to obtain from distributors and to upload.)

The way it looks is that you purchase the bulk of the skis through Saloman not for the quality primarily but because of the profit margin (i.e. bigger orders better discounts and possibly exclusivity supply discounts). I am not saying that this strategy for a retail outlet is wrong becuase possibly if you didn't make a bit more profit then the store wouldn't survive so .... no shop left offering any ski equipment in Poynton (and that would suck too!).

Saying this, my view i.e. my post is that shops that just offer 1 of any brand ..... suck. (Now my view is about as important to the world as a squished newt but there it is)

In terms of Jo66 and her issue. It is clear (and I stress this is my view rather than an absolute) that the boots DO NOT FIT.

I could go on and talk about all the intricacies but it all comes back to that they do not fit. I feel as a consumer that becuase of this I would expect a refund to the value paid or a replacement to the equivalent value of the boot (new).

The time delay is IRRELEVANT because the poor fit is not a consequence of wear & tear but a consequence of an error from the start. This is also an error that the consumer is not necessarily expereinced or skilled enough to notice immediately or realise that it is the fault of the boots rather than thinking mistakenly that it is down to the feet of the user.

If Jo66 doesn't feel confident allowing you to choose the boot or fit the boot she can always visit a independent foot specialist who can advise her as to the right boot to purchase and possibly even if this is restricted by only chosen from your range.

It seems that regardless of the aggression from Jo66 on the phone she still deserves a refund and it seems that the overriding factor that your shop and yourself is now taking this seriously is because it is out in the big bad world and directly affecting your business.

In terms of having the time to call Jo66. Well this is BS even at Christmas, as I would guess you get a call from a disgruntled client infrequently. It should be priority that at anytime you immediately deal with this problem rather than ignore it to take money at the till.

I hope Jo66 receives a refund and apology for the fit from M&M and in the future they interact more with some of the world's top bootfitter's and boot manufacturers to improve the range and services provided.

R

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Danny P, welcome to snowHeads and thanks for giving your side to the story.

However, the fact is you did fit and sell a pair of boots which appear to be several sizes too large and not wide enough. I would have trusted a bootfitter to fit a correct size boot. Many problems with boots do not appear until after having worn them skiing, not just round the house - at which stage you don't offer a full refund.

I too would not have been happy with your service, despite your explanations.

A snowHead

Danny P, Welcome to snowHead

, Good Response. I hope you can 'join in' generally when 'differences' are put-to-bed, if not resolved.

A thought -- I suspect that our CEM and SZK would refuse to sell sell an 'ill-fitting' boot if the customer were driven by the wrong criteria e.g. Colour, Price ( even if they left the premises'happy') ... but then again they have served me well, probably saved me a fortune ( I wasted loads-a-money doing what Jo did, ie buying 'cheap', recognising mistakes soon after) , and wouldn't visit anyone else without a reccomendation from them.

PS ( Mind you I could be totally wrong about them wink

)

A snowHead

In fairness to Danny P, it is not conclusive from Jo's visit to snow and rock that the boots were fitted wrongly or badly. I've been told different things about the fit of my boots by different bootfitters. As the bootfitters here will know (and i'm not one), customer's perception of what fits and what doesn't can be very different in the shop to on the slopes.

I bought my fiance a pair of boots (lange Venus 9) with a guarenteed fit from a recommended shop in courcheval a few years ago. She skied in them for two days, and they were miles better than the hire boots that had caused her real pain. But because her feet were sore from the hire boots, it wasn't possible to tell if they were totally comfortable.

Next skiing holiday, they weren't comfortable to the point that her big toe nails fell off. On our return we visited Lockwoods (with a friend who had uncomfortable boots). Lookwoods said the fit was fine but stretched the shells to increase the are around her big toe and did a few other bits and bobs to improve the fit. Karen was perfectly happy with paying the £60 to Lockwoods to refit the boots and when she left the shop she thought the boots fit perfectly. The friend we were with had a similar experience and again left the shop happy.

The same friend then went skiing with us to Tignes a month or so later. Both Karen and her had problems with their boots. Rona perservered with the existing boots, Karen's hurt so much she didn't want to ski. We visited Nevada sports with Karen's boots and the man their said the fit was fine and again stretched the toe box, but no improvement. i ended up buying her another pair of boots (head Edge 10) and these have proved to be fine.

In this case i am happy that the original fitment, the work done by Lockwoods and the work done by nevada was fine. The original shop said the boots were the right size, Lockwoods said slightly large, Nevada said slightly small. Ultimately, none of the bootfitters that tried to correct the fit could make them fit comfortably and i'm sure that a lot of that is due to the fact that karen didn't and couldn't communicate exactly were and how the boots hurt her.

Ultimately, Danny P asking his customer to return to the shop to look at the fit and see if it could be corrected is perfectly reasonable. H would then be able to correct the fit or if not offer a refund. Whether that refund is full or partial is the only real point of discussion in my view.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

cathy, You Quote "Many problems with boots do not appear until after having worn them skiing, not just round the house - at which stage you don't offer a full refund"

I am just about to purchase some new boots and need help to, please can you let me know of the ski shops that will let you wear the boots skiing and then let me take them back to get a full refund if i decide they hurt me as i would be prepared to travel any distance to get this kind of guarantee.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

jigga123, I think you may be surprised. I purchased my boots from Profeet in London and I have a 100% lifetime comfort guarantee. Any issues that are not wear and tear related they will amend for free.

Their ethos is that the fit should be right from the start both in the choice of boot aswell as the secondary fit such as insolves and stretching. The comfort guarantee shows me that however sure and skilled the bootfitter is it is only after testing on the slopes that it can become apparent of minor issues.

I have not purchased through Footworks but I am sure from general response of their staff that the service level is of similarly high standard. I also purchased a specialist boot not widely available in the UK and Solutions4Feet actively advised me to try to get the boot fit from the same guy who could check the boot prior. As such he turned away business to keep me happy and as such I am still a potential customer of the future.

When you leave the shop any future problems should always be minor, as major issues shows an inherent failure in the advice and service.

The only part of DannyP response that backs him up is: Jo66 wanted a May sale bargain .... but what is not clear is did she realise that it entailed getting a compromised fit which would give her pain.

lower, Try and appreciate that if Jo66 felt from the call that by going to the shop a further accusatory argument would ensue rather than a clear admission of responsability follwoed by a calm discussion about suitable refund or refit options then she has grounds for not wanting to spend the time or the aggravation going to the store.

Sorry DannyP but i am old skool here and in this case the customer is in the right.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

plectrum, I cannot believe that I am standing up for a retailer here.

I do not believe that if you were to walk back into any of the shops that you have mentioned above and asked for a full cash refund they would oblige, you yourself clearly state that they will ammend for free. (what happens after they have ammended them and you are still not happy they hurt you cant wear them? Will they just give you back your cash and throw away the boots?)

from what I have read jo66 has not been back into the shop as requested and therefore has not given them the chance to help her.

The post clearly states that the shop were prepared and I will quote.

1. Meet her in the shop and discuss further / see what could be done with the boots.
2. Look at a new pair of boots for her at a discounted price.
3. Sell her boots for her in the shop and give her all the money
4. Let her get fitted for boots elsewhere and I would then source the boots and sell them to her at a discount.
5. Suggested selling them on e-bay

I would also like to say that having read the response from DannyP he does not appear to be unreasonable or agressive in any of their arguments and has actively tried to engage in discussions so your quote "Try and appreciate that if Jo66 felt from the call that by going to the shop a further accusatory argument would ensue rather than a clear admission of responsability followed(edit) by a calm discussion about suitable refund or refit options then she has grounds for not wanting to spend the time or the aggravation going to the store" does seem inapropriate,

I am not sure how is it possible for any retailer to agree to a refund in principle over the phone without seeing the goods?

Maybe i am just being niave?

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Danny P, thanks for posting, it's good to hear the other side of the story.

Whilst I have some sympathy for the position you clarify above I note that you appear to quote one of my comments as follows:

plectrum,

Can i just try to understand what you are saying.

All of the shops that you mention will allow me to come into their shop try on some boots, allow the shell of the boot to be blown out if needed I could then purchase the boot. Then i am allowed to use the boots go back and state that they are not right for me and I will be entitled to a full refund.

I would imagine what they would say would be along the lines of.

We will adjust the boots for free
We will blow out the boots again if needed for free
we will fit any insoles wedges fitsocks for free.
we will make sure that you are happy with the fit of the boot and that you are comfortable in it for free.

You yourself have quite clearly stated that "I purchased my boots from Profeet in London and I have a 100% lifetime comfort guarantee. Any issues that are not wear and tear related they will amend for free"

The key word here is amend.

So as far as you have stated you could now ring up Profeet and say your boots do not fit you they are hurting and before I bring them back I would like you to agree to a full refund.

Are you a boot fitter plectrum as I would be interested what my foot is supposed to look like inside the boot so that I do not make any mistakes in getting new ones.

One of my close friends has just pointed out that alot of the opinion on here is quite strong and was wondering what if any the people making a contribution have an understanding of the law so I thouight I would post this link just incase.

I am now confused as to 1. Just what boots should I buy and 2. why have i spent alot of my afternoon defending a shop that is approx 180 mile from me.

Hey ho some things i suppose are worth commenting on.

Heres the link anyway

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A1183394

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roga

Ski Boot Comfort Guarantee:
When you buy boots from us we guarantee they will fit. If any problems develop we will change the boot or refit them at no charge with a refund of any difference if you change to a cheaper model.
This part only applies if you have not worn the boots skiing I presume.

However....
If after skiing in the boots you discover any fit problems we will continue to offer a free refitting service. Finally, if despite our refitting efforts your boots prove unsuitable and have been skied for less than 14 days we will issue you with a credit note less the comfort guarantee credit. A list of these charges are laid out on page 329 of our catalogue. To achieve the highest quality of fit a custom foot bed is essential.

What if you did not want a credit note jo66 wants a full cah refund from what I can gather.

suddenly the guarantee is not so good and is certainly not the same as is being suggested here.

Again I ask where can i get a shop to make as many adjustments to the boot allow me to ski on them and then get a full cash refund (not a refund or should i say credit note BIG DIFFERENCE minus various charges) all of my money back!!

And the only reason i have been replying to plectrum is the fact that their posts were the only ones updated when i have revisited the site.

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You know it makes sense.

rainman

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

rainman, that is because he wants an argument. It seems that just because DannyP has posted on the site we are all so apolgetic, suddelnly forgetting the way we were on hearing Jo66's story. I fully understand it is always a 2-sided affair but atleast I will stand by the conviction I have based on the facts infront of me.

We have 2 professional opinions here 1 is retold via Jo66 and the other is primary. Both point to the fact that the boot doesn't fit and as such causes pain which makes it not fit for purpose.

Jigga123 can banter on about whatever Jigga123 wants to but because of this fact it doesn't matter what the shop says, does or offers. The consumer in this case is entitled to a full cash refund.

The clauses placed in shop guarantees and conditions of trade are there to protect the shop from a consumer replacing a product for no other reason that changing mind. In this case or any similar cases the consumer would always have a case for a full refund.

Jigga123 I wish you a good weekend and I hope that Jo66 gets a refund and apology. In terms of Mountain & Marine and DannyP I seriously wish you no ill-will but I am just airing my views when prompted on this topic but I am not going to offer any 'well placed' advice because I am sure it will be taken as patronising .

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thank you plectrum I will go off and study the three principles of fit for purpose just incase i need them in my job of golf instructor.

the libel link came from one of our members who is a lawyer and therefore I have not got a clue regarding this. sorry.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Roga

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

plectrum, hey man, lighten up! Cool

I was merely trying to lighten the mood a little. Most people who've posted since Danny have merely remarked that it's good to hear both sides of the story, and that they hope some resolution can be reached that's agreeable to all.

I've quite enjoyed watching the to and fro...

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lower, No that a re-measurement was made and this not only caused the bootfitter to sell 'new boots' but also sell much smaller boots. The recommendation in both size and boot style was concordant with a 2nd 'gut' feeling of another professional.

The facts here are startlingly clear, I am neither the court or the police and so I have the luxury of not needing to check 100% but come-on the boots didn't fit, they never fit, the range tried at the time probably didn't offer any suitable sizes or shapes and rather than send the client away a compromise was tried.

Have a good weekend chaps and chapettes! It has been interesting. There is only one way to end this and it is a link to my overall view on this scenario:

http://youtube.com/v/9wtJz14VWEA&feature=related

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Dear All - Firstly many thanks to all those who have responded in support this afternoon and to others for their comments.

Danny P, It was not convenient to talk to you at lunchtime today as I was at work. I have now had the chance to read your response in full several times and would now like to respond. There are many things in your post that I do not agree with, however there is little point in going through them all as this will always now be a 'your word against mine' situation.

I would however like to make a few points - I am not happy about your constant reference to me being aggressive.
During our telephone conversation on Tue 18Dec I admit I was cross. This was because I had called the shop on Sunday, twice on Monday and again on Tuesday to chase up a return call and I was getting fed up of trying to get hold of you. If your staff had told me initially that you would not be in until Thu then I would not have expected a call back before then and would not have been cross.
During our conversation on Thu 20Dec, when you asked me to call you back to discuss this, I believe I remained calm throughout and was not aggressive, in fact before I called I even made a list of things I wanted to cover so that I didn’t go off track on the call. You were very defensive and it was obvious that we were not going to come to an agreement.

When this saga started I wanted to speak to you on the telephone first to get an idea of what you would be prepared to do before coming in. As it turned out the difficulty in getting to speak to you and our telephone conversations put me off coming in to the shop as you did not offer me, in my opinion, any suitable options. At no time did you say that a refund of any kind MAY be possible. I believed and still believe that there would have been little point in coming to the shop to see what could be done about the boots as I am sure that nothing can be done to reduce the size from 27.5 to 25.5.

The disagreement about whether you fitted the boots incorrectly and about whether you should give me a refund is now academic.

I have now purchased a new pair of boots from Ellis Brigham in Castlefield, Manchester who incidentally offer a comfort guarantee. This means that I can take them back for modifications for up to 3 years after purchase and I quote "Should we not be able to provide a satisfactory fit, then, providing the ski boots have been worn for less than two weeks (wear and tear will be taken into account), correct socks and supportive footbeds have been used, and there is a proof of purchase (to show the boots were bought from Ellis Brigham in the preceding 18 months), we will issue a credit note for 70% of the value paid." http://www.ellis-brigham.com/ski-boots.htm

The Salomon's you sold me are up for auction on eBay and will hopefully be sold by the end of tomorrow.

And finally, my point has been made, my experience of bad customer service (in my opinion) has been heard by many fellow skiers and has made at least one person think twice about buying from your shop. I think we should leave it there and put it down to experience. I will not darken your doors again.
If you wish me to edit this thread to reflect that this is my experience and my opinion then please let me know.

After all it is free

Guys please don't fall out over this. To clarify I didn't take the Salomon boots to Ellis Brigham to have them checked, I simply went there to buy a new pair and was measured as 25.5. The originals were 27.5 I had already decided at that point to sell the Salomons and be done with it.

Unfortunately this does appear to be a 'your word against mine situation'
I am extremely sorry to hear that a customer of mine is clearly dissatisfied
We are essentially a small business, established for 17 years, run by family and friends and customer satifaction is everything.

I am disappointed that this issue could not be resolved amiacably.
However, i am ultimately pleased that Jo has found a pair of boots that she is comfortable with.

In conclusion - Thank you all for your comments. These have have been read carefully and taken on board.

On a seperate issue, I am at least happy to have found this forum and I look forward to commenting on more happy topics in future. Smile

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Danny P, well done for coming on here and giving a reasoned view. Welcome to snowheads Smile

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Jo66 - ski boot fitting saga

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