 Poster: A snowHead
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Edited 07/01/08 Title changed and to note that this thread represents my experience of ski boot fitting and my opinions of the service I received. This may not apply to everyone, particularly if you had 'normal' feet i.e. not wide, not narrow
Jo
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I'm hoping some  s can give me some advice.
I have always struggled with ski boots. When I was tiny I can remember my feet hurting when wearing them and only being able to go to ski school in the morning and being dumped in the creche in the afternoon.
I started skiing again 6 years ago, after a 21 year break. In those 6 years I have been on the snow 5 1/2 weeks. I've always hired boots and I've always felt pain, tingling and numb toes and have usually taken the boots back 2 or 3 times to change during each holiday. I always thought the problem was due to my feet being wide.
So in May this year I bought some ski boots in the end of season sales, as I thought they would have to be better that rental ones. I went to a place in Poynton (nr Manchester) called Mountain & Marine and a very helpful guy called Danny spent quite a time with me while I tried different sizes and models. When I got the right size I kept the boots on for 20mins or so and the same old problem started - I get tingling across my feet at the base of the toes, sort of on top of the ball of the foot if that makes sense. After a while my toes goe numb. I have to wiggle them constantly to relieve this.
So Danny checked whether the buckles were too tight - they weren't. He then had a look at my feet and told me that the discomfort was being caused because I have a high arch and the boots when done up push down and collapse the arch. So he cut and moulded some footbeds for me. I bought the boots (Saloman Irony 7 CF) and footbeds and off I went.
...I'm finally getting to the point...
I hadn't worn the boots since I bought them, until I went to Chill Factore a couple of weeks ago. I had them on for 1 1/2 hours and about half way through I started to get the same problem.
Can anyone tell me
a) is this because the boots & footbeds aren't right for me?
b) because I need to 'wear them in'?
c) should I persevere or go back and get them checked?
I am off for a long weekend skiing on 11Jan and then again for a week on 9Feb and I really don't want to have trouble with my boots!!
All advice welcome. Thanks
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 7-01-08 20:37; edited 4 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No answers - something I said? Has this been one boot question too far?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 14-12-07 8:45; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jo66, you'll probably get some proper answers before long. However, it would seem that going back to the shop where you bought them would be a good start. It is possible to stretch the shell of the boot if it's putting pressure where it shouldn't - I had that done with some boots which were pressing on a hammer toe, and it did the trick beautifully. My most recent couple of pairs haven't been a problem but my brother in law had pressure on an ankle bone, and the local (French) boot shop stretched it. They charged about 25 euros but said I could keep taking it back till the problem was solved. The shop where you bought them should probably do that without additional charge. Your description of "numb on the top of the ball of my foot" makes perfect sense to me. I can remember that exact same feeling - but I don't think it was in ski boots. Circulation impairment, probably.
Now just wait for some professional answers, which will probably be something quite different! To my mind, if the boot is pressing too hard on the blood vessels on the top of your feet (which will also make your feet cold) then putting anything underneath, even a proper footbed, won't necessarily help. Could make it worse. But that logical sounding view might be completely wrong.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Jo66 wrote: |
| No answers - something I said? Has these been one boot question too far? |
We never tire of boot questions; foot pain is something almost everyone has experienced.
My initial worry arises from
| Quote: |
| a very helpful guy called Danny spent quite a time with me while I tried different sizes and models |
You don't mention whether he actually measured your feet!
If you search through the boot threads, you'll see two or three names keep popping up - CEM and the zookeepers along with Lockwoods, Profeet et al
I would imagine you'll get some sage replies soon, but otherwise, go and see a good bootfitter - even if it means travelling.
and finally, welcome to
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, Thanks for the info - yes I think I will go back to the shop.
doctor_eeyore, I think he did measure my feet, certainly for the footbeds anyway 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Jo66, sounds like [and this is difcult over the net... you have a lack of flexion at the ankle which is forcing all the weight on the ball of your feet when you ski, other options are that the toe box of the boot is just a little too narrow for your foot, first step is put your foot in the empty shell see how muich space you have front to back and side to side in the shell....then get back to the shop and see what they can do let us know how much space you have then we can come up with some ideas [for length ..toes gently brushing the front of the shell how much space is there behind your heel, for width centre your foot front to back and lift your forefoot a little [3-4mm] move the forefoot side to side, how much space is there]
hope that makes sense
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Jo66, Go back to Mountain and Marine and see what they say. Then try them again as soon as poss.
If they are still not good then make the journey to see CEM,
I live in the same area as you - I know the shop, it's about 10 mins away. I have suffered in the past with boots - numbness, pain, constantly having to unclip them etc etc.
I went to see CEM, this week. I did end up getting a new pair but felt sure that if I didn't want to buy a new pair he would of made my origional pair a whole lot better. Or given me excercises to do to improve any lack of flexion etc.
I put my new pair on last night and sat in them for 3 hours - no probs at all. They felt great. In my others within 15 mins I would have pain then numbness and be wanted to unclip them and wriggle my foot around to get some feeling back and they always felt "heavy" if that makes sense?
I can thoroughly recommend CEM, pm me if you want any more details. It is worth the journey and he really knows his stuff. 
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CEM, I'll try what you suggest and then go back to the shop. If I still struggle I might take up minx, s advice and come visit you. I'm not great at UK geography - where is Bicester in relation to Macclesfield (20miles south of Manchester)?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jo66, You can get a train from Macc to Banbury, then it's a 15 min train from Banbury to Bicester. It's near Leamington Spa. In between Birmingham and London is the best way I can describe it. Although I'm sure CEM, will clarify.
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CEM, OK
Empty shell with liner taken out. Foot in shell with ski sock on. Approx measurements using no. of finger widths that can fit in the space then measured with a ruler - very technical!
Left foot - front to back approx 50mm, side to side approx 7-8mm
Right foot - front to back approx 65mm, side to side approx approx 7-8mm
How does that sound?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Try easyjet to Geneva, cheap weekend and you get to ski and get your boots just right. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I will be flying to Geneva on 11Jan for 2 1/2 days skiing, staying in Montriond nr Avoriaz. Know any good bootfitters there? Would like to get them sorted before that so that I can enjoy the skiing, but if all else fails at least they would be sorted for the Feb trip.
CEM, I think I must have gone for boots that were too long in order to get the width. Do you think there is anything that can be done with these boots or am I looking at news ones? e.g. could you sort them for me if I made the trip?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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CEM, I'll PM you my details. Thanks for your help so far!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jo66, if Mountain & Marine have sold you boots that are this big on your feet you have a legitimate reason for heading back to them and complaining I'd say or at the very least phoning them up and explaining the situation and asking them what they'll do 'coz they've sold you a 'pup'. I dunno if you'd stand a snowflakes chance in hell of getting any money back or even getting anything at all out of them (you're past the point when you can demand a refund) but the helpful chap you mention sounds like someone who didn't have s clue what he was doing!
Funnily enough I had a very helpful chap misfit a pair of boots for me last year and I bumped into him in the same shop again a couple of weeks ago - he remembered me well, saying "I remember you, you came back about 10 times didn't you because we couldn't get your boots right?" "Yes" said I smiling quizzically and he then reeled off what boots I'd bought and what size then asked if I ever got them sorted, "yes, I'm impressed that you can remember all that - better memory than me" said I, "I took them to a professional bootfiter/podiatrist" (CEM as it happens) "but they were fitted too big so I'm getting new ones this year and geting them fitted by the same professional bootfiter/podiatrist" I added.
Disarmingly he then admitted he knew almost nothing about bootfitting last year but was now really good having spent the summer working in New Zealand with a professional bootfitter over there, "take them to me now and I'll be able to sort them for you", he added... I declined politely with a grin on my face, once bitten...
I could but smile and laugh at his honesty but it just goes to show that there are people out there who are fitting boots who are pretty clueless (some even admitting it themselves it seems) and the only way you'll make sure you get a proper fit is IMHO by going to someone and/or somewhere recommended on here 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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roga, I've called the shop and Danny "the boot technician" isn't in today but he's going to call me tomorrow. I explained the problem to the chap I spoke too - boots too long presumably in order to get wide fit - but still not wide enough - and he said they would always endeavour to do something to help. I don't think they'll be able to adjust these boots - they might be able to stretch them to make them wider but I suspect there's nothing that can be done about them being too long. Let's see what they offer!
I've PM'd CEM for advice - hoping he'll be able to suggest the best way forward.
In the meantime does anyone know which Women's boots are best for wide feet & high arches? I measured the width of me feet and they are 108mm.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jo66, Take the boots back for a refund as they're not fit for purpose at that size. Then go visit CEM.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ I agree with spyderjon, if a refund is possible at this late date go for that - if the boots are as long as they seem to be there's nothing that can be done to make them fit. If you let them start stretching the boots and customising them, and I'd guess they'll do it in a haphazard fashion anyway given they've misfitted the boots in the first place, you'll end up with boots that fit neither you or anyone else.
I'm not sure where you stand legally but if they are refusing to refund initially you might stand a chance of persuading them to give back at least some of the money if you buy another pair from them (I know it sucks but at least you'll be able to save something). However I suggest you go to CEM first and he'll be able to recommend a make of boots that'll suit your feet and he can work with. If you're lucky and they do stock that particular make you could then get the boots from them and get CEM to fit them. Word of caution, ignore whatever they suggest and stick with CEMs advice - he honestly knows best!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks for the update Jo66, only sorry to hear about these problems.
| Jo66 wrote: |
Latest update - after many phone calls to the shop where I bought my boots and being given the run around, I finally got to speak to the so-called "bootfitter" today. He insists that he has done nothing wrong - he says he's been fitting boots for 15 years, that there is no need to measure feet, that a shell check without the liner is a waste of time, that it's perfectly normal to go 1 or 2 sizes bigger to get the width needed etc etc 
He says that I left the shop happy and thinks I should have contacted him months ago if there was a problem - given that I bought them in May and could not actually ski in them until Chill Factore opened, this was obviously not possible! He is not prepared to give me a refund because the boots are now "used" and he cannot re-sell them. |
I think the truth may be coming out here in his aggression and defensiveness, the bloke doesn't seem like he has a clue - try mentioning that shell checks are a waste of time and there's no need to measure feet and it's fine to fit boots a size or two too large to get enough width to CEM and I'll bet you'll be watching him roll around the floor laughing in disbelief!
I had some hassles last year with boots but at no time were the staff discourteous or unpleasant they were just a bit clueless about what to do, as a result I'm happy going back to them for anything apart from boot fitting and they still make money out of me.
This shop, or at least this person, appears to want to chase you away, their loss I'd say and they'll loose more if their name and behaviour is really highlighted clearly on this forum. However, I'd suggest you try to make contact with the owner/manager of the shop and see what his/her reaction is, perhaps do it after you've seen CEM because he will be able to give you definitive information that can be used as 'ammunition'.
| Quote: |
The 2 things he has offered are
1) to sell the boots for me in his shop, as second hand and if/when they sell he'll give me the money - who knows how long this would take and would be ever sell them? |
Better than nothing I guess but to be honest you'd be better putting them on eBay.
| Quote: |
| or 2) he will sell me a new pair of boots with a discount - of course I don't trust him now to sell me boots that are the right size and I certainly don't trust him to modify them! |
I'd say wait and see what boots and size CEM recommends for you and then see if this bloke can get them and what sort of discount he's offering - if it's peanuts then leave it and source them elsewhere, if it's a worthwhile discount order the boots to the spec CEM has recommended and then take them to him for a proper fitting.
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His parting comments were, if you don't want one of these options and you want to take this further then feel free to send a written complaint, go to the OFT or a solicitor! I'm so angry that this is just what I want to do.  |
Could be bluff there and he's presuming you won't do any of these but I'd suggest you keep the powder dry for now, see CEM and take it from there.
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What do you think? I need advice from rational people - as I feel anything from rational right now.
Should I "See him in court" or just eBay them and be done with it?  |
Hang fire and let yourself cool down a bit, I know what it's like 'coz I've been there but your shop sound far worse than anything I've encountered. Wait until after you've seen CEM and try some of the approaches I suggest above - discount if they can source the correct boots (and it's a decent discount) and speak to the owner/manager to voice your concerns but for now keep it calm and friendly if at all possible. If all else fails a few weeks down the line you can then drag their name through the mud here and take the matter further legally if you have a case.
| Quote: |
| Incidentally I am booked to see CEM on Friday 28th Dec, for professional boot fitting! |
This'll help considerably - well done
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 20-12-07 22:45; edited 1 time in total
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roga, Unfortunately Danny the bootfitter is also the owner! 
I thought about getting the boots from him at a discount and getting CEM to fit them but of course I need to see CEM first before buying boots and this then would involve 2 trips to see CEM. I live in Macclesfield, Cheshire and I'm going to make the trip to Bicester (2 1/2 hours by train each way) and really want to buy boots and get them fitted in the same day. I go away on 11Jan so don't have time for a second visit.
I think it's a sensible suggestion to see CEM first, get the right size and fit and then I'll have more ammunition to prove Danny's fit was wrong. Then when I've calmed down I can decide whether to "see him in court" or sell on eBay and drag his name & shop name through the mud.
Watch this space!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jo66, I'm horrified by Mountain and Marine's attitude. I cannot believe that he didn't even measure your feet, that would be the first thing they should do!!! So his guess work is his trademark is it? - very proffesional - not.
You will get exactly what you need from CEM. I'm thrilled with mine have sat in them for 3-4 hours a couple of nights - fantastic. The guy is brilliant and it is worth the trek.
As for what you do about the old ones I'm not sure. The old saying is a disgruntled customer tells 10 people a happy one tells 1. His loss of business.
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minx, I must have told more than 10 people about my experience already and I intend to tell as many more as I can!
I am happy to put my trust in CEM with so many Snowheads recommending him - can't wait to get a pair of boots that are comfy!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Jo66, sell the old boots on ebay (try here as well). CEM is one of the best in the UK, and if he can't sort you out, then you need to head towards the various Zoos in Chamonix.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jo66, might be worth changing the thread title to include the words "Mountain and Marine" as it will be picked more easily in searches.
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Jo66, Have a good Christmas. I shall see you at CEM's also on the 28th, as I'm there for a little tweaking session.
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You know it makes sense.
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Jo66, another vote of confidence in CEM from me - you're doing the right thing.
As to your "M&M" experience - "Oh, Danny Boy!" is all I can say
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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M&M must be barking.
Any prospective customers who Google them will find this thread....bye bye!
Just goes to show the old adage is true:
A happy customer gives a positive reference.
An unhappy customer gives ten negative references.
Silly boy Danny!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jo66, I could go on for hours, lack of flexion springs to mind, not the Bootfitters fault, but if he can't spot it, he ain't no bootfitter. See CEM if you can't find someone descent in resort.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jo66, BTW, when i read your thread title, my dyslexia reads, Monty Python Terrible Bootfitting. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nick L, I just googled "Mountain & Marine, Poynton" and this thread came up 4th of the search results list!
Spyderman, See you at CEM's on the 28th. I'm there at 2pm.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, CEM mentioned poss lack of flexion also, but I assume this won't be helped by having boots that are too long and too narrow. Once I've got the right fit I guess I can work on my flexion?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jo66, Did you go today? How did you get on ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Jo66, get CEM to give you his calf stretching exercises - they make a world fo difference to me if I do them in the morning before I put my ski boots on. I should really do them more regularly than that but if I do them before putting my boots on, I can ski most of teh day without feeling any strain on my achilles
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nbt, try Scan Sports, Macclesfield. Can be hit or miss re what's available but they've just expanded the ski section and if they've got a sale on you can get a bargain . . . (I got a Burton jacket for £125).
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Mountain & Marine have a jubious product list for an expert specialist. They only sell one ski brand Saloman. What do they do when a client comes in with a request or an issue that cannot be solved by their expertise with 1 brand! Shops like this are so bogus I understand retail is hard but just taking products from one manufacturer shows an inherant lack of care or understanding for the entire sport.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 29-12-07 1:16; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Also it is strange that in buying my boots, no bootfitter would advise me on a boot before doing a shell size on my foot. It would be nice for Danny from M&M to post here to explain why he feels it is a waste of time!
Also wouldn't it be wiser to get a wider boot model rather than get a longer boot to try and fudge the width? Surely though if the boots are a poor fit then it doesn't matter if they are 1 week or 1 year old. You were mis-sold a product and possibly you should report the store and take it to the small claims court.
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plectrum, The whole affair is now widespread across the industry. 'Bootfitting' is a buzz word and i have heard many ways in which shops are now marketing their services with everything from taglines of 'Twenty Years of Experience' (meaning 'In business for 20 years') to "Mulitple Locations Worldwide" (meaning where the staff come from, where they are based and where they are on Holiday.)
This is all marketing spin and something i can't abide. We have a couple of guys who worked in my boss' other shop for a couple of seasons, they made a fist of running the 'Bootlab' and we've since had to close it. They have now set themselves up and are gaining Kudos by telling everyone they ran Foot Works for a number of years, despite never having worked in 'Foot Works' Chamonix'. Nothing i can do about it, it's all the client wants to hear, but they are trading off the backs of, in my case, 8 winters of hard work. There is another shop in Scotishland trading as 'Foot Works' at....... This has no connection with us despite a couple of our shop's closest friends working with these people quite alot. Hmmm.
Anyhow, i guess this can't be advoided but threads like these serve to expose the pi$$takers, long may that continue.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sat 29-12-07 19:57; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
