 brian
brian
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| The rival Nevis Range's gondola and CairnGorm Mountain's funicular railway have allowed them to run in summer. |
The Glencoe chair was running this summer to take mountain bikers up, and I thought that they had big plans to build tracks there? I didn't however see anyone using it, and couldn't find out times/prices, so I guess that their publicity let them down. The couple of times that I was there, the cloud was low, otherwise I'd have gone for a ride.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just look at the comments on the Scotsman article. People trotting out the no snow line and saying they are regular skier/boarders but don't ski in scotland cos the conditions are so poor. Clearly they were one of the many people not skiing in Scotland last year when the resorts were open. Or the year before when conditions were really good, but the ski areas were very quiet.
I had a great day yesterday at cairngorm. I had 11 good days last season and 27 good days the season before.
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Think this is a non story that has been hyped up because the media thought they had another "scottish skiing is dead global warming story" to run with. Glencoe Ski Area is not out of business, is not shutting down and will be open when there is sufficient snow. New investors have been brought onboard who will take ownership of the ski area, Glencoe Mountain Resort is being woundup because the ski area is being sold.
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brian
brian
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Winterhighland, huzzah 
Would be a crying shame for that lovely new base station (smashing cakes btw and a brilliant view, very good place to stop even if you're not skiing but just passing on the A82) and the extension to the plateau chateau to go to waste.
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Winterhighland, are they not in liquidation then? is that just press hype? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So this is the Scotsman running yet another inaccurate story about snowsports?
That paper really needs something 'drastic' done to it! 
PCC again I guess (not that they'll do anything of course!)
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Correct, not in liquidation, just buying out one of the business partners. Might have been polite to at least check out the story with the company before printing it.
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brian
brian
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From the Coe's website:
12-12-2007
Following a successful purchase today from Invocas, Glencoe is open for business and awaiting suitable ski conditions. Have a great 2007/8 season. From all the staff.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Dave Horsley, Jeez that's bad, that kind of inaccurate reporting will do untold damage to their reputation. Isn't it about time someone lined up the press against a wall at dawn..?
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The same "Bankrupt" story has just been on the local news.
Just found out about this has I've just come back from skiing today at Cairngorm in "Snowless Scotland"
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You know it makes sense.
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OK, not knowing any of the details of this, I did a little checking...
The Scotsman reports the company as in liquidation, while the Glencoe web site reports a management buyout. At first glance, it looks like the HootsMon has got it badly wrong...
...but hold on, the management buyout wasn't from Glencoe Mountain Resort, but from Invocas. So who are Invocas? Well, according to the Scotsman article, they are the provisional liquidator brought in to wind up the company, and the Scotsman also says that a petition for liquidation was lodged at Fort William Sheriff Court, and while reporting can be wildly inaccurate at times, making up court hearings is beyond even the worst journo. The Invocas website makes it clear that they have interests in several areas of corporate debt, including insolvency and liquidation.
So, what do we know? Well, officially, not a lot. The announcement on the Glencoe web site is basic to say the least, but they're certainly open for business and praying for snow. Unofficially however, it can fairly reasonably be inferred that the company had cash flow problems, was put into liquidation, and one of the owners then bought what was left back again. This is of course supposition, but built on a foundation of facts - I look forward to the clarification which the new Glencoe company will no doubt issue in the next few days!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As I understand it this was a procedural transaction to allow one of the original partners that setup Glencoe Mountain Resort Ltd to exit, while transferring ownership to the management on site. Such deals are far from uncommon, but it was reported with the full on doom and gloom "Ski Area goes tits up because of global warming" style. Initially by an outlet who has repeatedly published inaccurate and damaging stories about Scottish Skiing written by authors with a history of having an "agenda" against the existence of lift served snowsports in Scotland.
In the case of the esteemed publication that is the Scotsman this included publishing an article last winter when Glencoe was very much open and offering skiing that Glencoe was not only closed, but that it had been for several years and the Highland Council were trying to flog the abandoned car park. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Winterhighland, I agree that it's normal to start afresh with a clean company when doing such deals, but I would imagine that Invocas took the opportunity to ditch some debt. Any creditors losing out?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again - I'm gobsmacked at this level of dishonesty from the Scottish press - it really is quite outrageous that this is going on!
What can we do?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Winterhighland, management buy outs do not require a court order, receivership, and a purchase from the receiver. They merely require the buyers to pay the asking price for the share capital held by the current owners. It may not be as dire as the Hootsmon reported, but there's almost certainly some debt readjustment going on in there somewhere...
All of which is of course good news for the skiing community if it keeps Glencoe open, but it may be bad news for some local or national/international suppliers and/or banks, who could be out of pocket as a result.
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ousekjarr, and if you are right about that (and I suspect you are) then the reporting is fairly accurate. Using the full protection of limited liability means you can't have it both ways - lose debt on the one hand and get some negative press on the other. Dressing it up as an MBO is where the real spin is.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, exactly. While I'm no fan of the Scotsman, it seems that they reported accurately on what had happened when they went to press. The apparent development of an MBO minutes later probably missed their deadlines, or their reporter was scuttling back to the office while the new deal was being struck in the corridor. I would check on their website today to see whether they've updated the story, but someone seems to have broken it...
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Associated Press: http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5j89CZ-EjKAirc7X29Z0ix7JbApOg
| Quote: |
Stricken ski centre finds new buyer
16 hours ago
Scotland's oldest ski centre has been taken over in a management buy-out deal.
The troubled Glencoe Mountain Resort (GMR) went into liquidation following a run of poor winter seasons. But it has now been bought out by new company GM Chairlift Ltd, the owners of which ran the previous operation.
Glasgow-based Invocas were appointed liquidators of GMR and concluded the deal on Wednesday afternoon.
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^ there hasn't been "a run of poor winter seasons" and Glencoe wasn't/isn't "stricken"
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roga, Must have been financially stricken otherwise why crash the company and form a new one?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ as I understand it all that's happened is one partner has bought the other one out and in the process they may have shed some debts - I don't call that stricken but that's my take on it rather than The 'there's no snow in Scotland' Scotsman's line.
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roga, two seperate issues really... the reporting of snow conditions generally by the media (not just Scotland) is pants. No snow is a good story, too much snow is a good story but just enough snow isn't very interesting... man bites dog etc. None of us should be surprised that newspapers enjoy spin.
There's spin from the other side too - one shareholder buying out another shareholder doesn't require a liquidator or formation of a new company, it's just a share transfer. Presenting it as a management buy out is just plain misleading.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| There's spin from the other side too - one shareholder buying out another shareholder doesn't require a liquidator or formation of a new company, it's just a share transfer. Presenting it as a management buy out is just plain misleading. |
Good wheeze to offload a few debts though  but I've seen nothing whatsoever that makes me think 'stricken'!
Frankly I wish CML would do something like this (or just go plain old fashioned bust) so that they can escape the clutches of RBS...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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roga, at some stage the degree of "stricken-ness" will come out. There'll be a list of creditors and that'll probably include the Vatman, PAYE, local council, printers (they always cop it) but, crucially, important equipment suppliers will probably be OK. Funny old world.
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roga, if there hasn't been a "run of poor winter seasons", why is one of the partners bailing out, and why does it appear to have been engineered via insolvency? Yes, there may have been snow - but I read that as "they haven't made a profit" rather than that there hadn't been any snow. We skiers do tend to have one-track minds sometimes...
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You know it makes sense.
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
| roga, if there hasn't been a "run of poor winter seasons", why is one of the partners bailing out, |
I don't know, there are a million easons why a partner in a business might decide to leave... you might as well ask why the other is staying in...
Fact is there hasn't been a run of poor winters in terms of snow which is the implication of these inaccurate reports, there has, as a result in part I'd suggest of stories like this in the Scottish press, been an issue with getting punters onto the hills at all the Scottish ski areas. This runs larger than press reporting though, the Scottish ski areas are notoriously bad at PR and marketing and tha has to figure large in any explanation of falling skier days over the last few years.
| Quote: |
| and why does it appear to have been engineered via insolvency? |
If it has, and remember we have this part of the story I think only from The Scotsman who frankly have published more misinformation about Scotish snowsports than all the rest put together, I think we've covered that above - dumping debts!
As I say I wish CML would do the same!
| Quote: |
| Yes, there may have been snow - but I read that as "they haven't made a profit" rather than that there hadn't been any snow. We skiers do tend to have one-track minds sometimes... |
Fine that's your take but if you've followed or are involved in the Scottish ski scene you'll be aware of the type of story that has habitually been published in the Scotsman and it's sister paper Scotland on Sunday all of which add up to an agenda which pushes the global warming/no snow aspect of any story relating to Scottish skiing. There have been a number of occasions when these papers have been taken to the PCC, there is a ruling due on a story back in September and last year they had to apologise for a false story stating that Glencoe was closed and had been for a number of years as a result of global warming and poor ski seasons (don't ask me what their beef is with Glencoe!).
Take a look at Winterhighland for informed debate (more informed than I can offer to be honest!) and threads with all the relevant stats and information re skier days etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Usual thing with the SCGB though, they hardly have their finger on the pulse of Scottish skiing!
Mind you the lack of investment bit is about right and applies to most of the Scottish ski areas sadly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
| roga, if there hasn't been a "run of poor winter seasons", why is one of the partners bailing out, and why does it appear to have been engineered via insolvency? |
I'll tell you why, largely through the sort of reporting that appeared in the press yesterday. The Scotsman last winter printed a story saying Glencoe was closed for snowsports and had been for several years and that the Council were looking to flog the abandoned carpark at the base. It was pure fabricated nonsense, and one can only suspect it was written with the intention of doing real damage to the ski area.
It's not climate change that is responsible for the declining skier days, it's the increasingly hysterical reporting of AGW and the widespread perception that's been created of the "snow free Global Warming UK".
I shall quote the opening line from one programe of the BBC's flagship global warming series from a couple of years back, "Global Warning":
| Quote: |
| It is now five years since it snowed in the UK. |
People believe and trust the BBC and this reporting from any media source is hugely damaging and for small companies there is virtually no way to overcome it.
The public perception of the snow free UK is not just ahead of reality, it's more than 80 years ahead of the worst case scenario. The UK wont be snow free in the 2080s under any current warming scenario. One significant but often overlooked climate change prediction for Northern Scotland is that the Highlands will see a significant reduction in inter annual variation from one winter to the next.
The net result is that last winter would still be milder than average in 2080 even in a worst case warming scenario. Even in the mildest winters in the worst case warming scenarios snowsports would still be possible on the upper runs at Nevis and CairnGorm.
If we get high warming scenarios the expected Northern Shift in weather patterns could actually see the mildest weather to our NW and we'd get relatively cooler conditions undercutting - something which puts a lid on the further future warming for Northern Scotland.
If snowsports ends in Scotland in the lifetime of anyone reading this thread, it wont be due to climate. It might very well be due to media fuelled perception of climate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The lack of snow may get exaggerated but there is a degree of truth to it and it is enough to damage the resorts. Really now you need to wait till there is good snow and then go and ski. For me down here in London it means I cannot plan in advance and may not notice in time that there is good snow reported on the website - or may already have arranged to do something else.
I used to come up especially to ski about every other year, but have not skied up there for at least 10 years because I have never been free when I heard there was good snow. The only 2 times in recent years I have happened to be up there in winter (and yes, I took my skis in case), only the (rather flat) summit run at Nevis was open so I turned around and went home. And if the snow has been so good why do they never open the lifts in the Nevis back bowl that they put in at so much expense and have just been rusting since (I keep looking for years on the website and not once have I seen them open).
I don't see how the bad publicity could be all that is wrong when the locals echo it. The last time I stayed the night in Ballachulich - the village next to Glen Coe (last summer) the people in the B & B still had 5 pairs of skis in the back hall (they had been keen skiers when I visited in the past) but said they hadn't skied for several years because the snow was seldom good enough.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 13-12-07 23:46; edited 1 time in total
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For what its worth - Glencoe Mountain Resort Limited is still shown as an active company on the Companies House website - its not shown as being in liquidation and GM Chairlift Ltd is also shown as being active although the registered company address is now in Glasgow and not at Glencoe.
Invocas is a debt management company - i'm not sure why its being reported that they are the buyers of the resort. There are four possible scenarios here - Administration, Receivership, solvent and insolvent liquidation. Until its clear what is being done here then its just guesswork.
Its possible its just a solvent liquidation scenario as previously suggested to transfer ownership from joint partners to the single partner.
I dont see any evidence that a buyer other than one of the current partners is actively being sought.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowball wrote: |
The lack of snow may get exaggerated but there is a degree of truth to it and it is enough to damage the resorts. Really now you need to wait till there is good snow and then go and ski. For me down here in London it means I cannot plan in advance and may not notice in time that there is good snow reported on the website - or may already have arranged to do something else.
I used to come up especially to ski about every other year, but have not skied up there for at least 10 years because I have never been free when I heard there was good snow. The only 2 times in recent years I have happened to be up there in winter (and yes, I took my skis in case), only the (rather flat) summit run at Nevis was open so I turned around and went home. And if the snow has been so good why do they never open the lifts in the Nevis back bowl that they put in at so much expense and have just been rusting since (I keep looking for years on the website and not once have I seen them open).
I don't see how the bad publicity could be all that is wrong when the locals echo it. The last time I stayed the night in Ballachulich - the village next to Glen Coe (last summer) the people in the B & B still had skis in the back hall (they had been keen skiers when I visited in the past) but said they hadn't skied for several years because the snow was seldom good enough. |
I think the pictures of the last few years skiing in Scotland on Winterhighland.com puts paid to the lie that the 'snow was seldom good enough' It sounds as though that was just an excuse you were given.
What happened to the media story that global warming would turn off the warming from the North Atlantic Drift or move it further south which would allow Scotland to have a climate along the lines of other countries in the same Latitude ? I remember a forecast that said that snowfall would actually increase in Scotland in a global warming scenario as parts of Scotland are in the same latitude as Moscow........
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| Quote: |
| I don't see how the bad publicity could be all that is wrong when the locals echo it. The last time I stayed the night in Ballachulich - the village next to Glen Coe (last summer) the people in the B & B still had skis in the back hall (they had been keen skiers when I visited in the past) but said they hadn't skied for several years because the snow was seldom good enough. |
It does seem from a screening of Warren Millers PLAYGROUND in Inverness that locals are as guilty of swallowing the perception as anyone else.
I was flabbergasted by people coming up to me and saying hopefully CairnGorm would get more than the weeks skiing they had last season, or comments such as hopefully this will be a semi-decent winter since there was no skiing in Scotland last season. This is from people who SKI who live in the HIGHLANDS. Even when they can see there is snow on the hills as one person put it "there might be a dusting, but its not enough to actually run any ski lifts what with Global Warming". 
I recall a friend who stayed in a B&B in Aviemore a couple of seasons ago being told by the land lady there isn't any skiing all the snow has melted. The snow had melted in Aviemore.....
To underline the way the message is being driven home about global warming, I have it on record from a number of 3rd year geography pupils at a school in the Highlands in the vicinity of one of the ski areas that the classes were told "don't buy a season ticket as there wont be snow again due to global warming".
Another problem here is the fact that Snowsports is regarded widely as a holiday activity in the UK, this leads to a media slant that is often wholly missing the point. The Scottish Ski Industry depends entirely on the day trip and weekend market, always did and always will, anything else is a bonus, but without that core market it can't survive. It is in fact the way for most ski resorts apart from a select few of mega international resorts.
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Alan (Winterhighland) could you further enlighten snowball with details of when Braveheart has been open over the last few years please?
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| roga wrote: |
| Alan (Winterhighland) could you further enlighten snowball with details of when Braveheart has been open over the last few years please? |
Yes please.
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A lot lot less than the Back Corries have been skiable, there's a range of problems with the Braveheart not least big issues with insurance risk assessors who can't quite grasp the concept of snowsports. It's another factor along with the VAT on lift tickets, the absurdly high price of fuel etc that is increasingly stacked against snowsports in the UK. Why is it cheaper to fly to the Alps from Glasgow than it is to drive a modest car to CairnGorm when the government tells us fuel duty is a green tax because of global warming... Hang on the Doc says take some chill pills... later! 
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Has it been open at all in recent years?
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FAQ
