Ski Touring ski length question?

A snowHead

Hi,

I ski XRC's on piste at 171, this length is fine and quite stable.
In powder I ski Gotama's at 178 and again I find it stable.

For touring I do not want to go longer than 181 nor shorter than 171 but I am not sure where in that range I want to be. My instinct says that slightly shorter will make ascent faster but descent slightly less stable. Saying this I also guess that shorter will make tight turns slightly easier.

Now the all important weight and height question: 178cm and 160 pounds. Or 5ft 10 and 73 kilo

I am not going to be skiing on crazy steep slopes and am still at the skill level where I need to place safety over extreme speed.

So any thoughts on what lengths I should go.

A snowHead

plectrum, go with the skis you are most happy skiing variable quality snow in. The only real issue with length is to get something short enough you can do a reasonable kick turn with, but long enough for stability in crud - I would say mid-high 170s sound about right for you. Other than that lower weight is better than higher, and don't go too shaped (go for 18m+) or wide (start at no more than 80mm), as that makes it quite a bit trickier holding a traverse on skins - I would say that the Gotamas are way too wide to start out with. I'm a couple of cm taller than you but about 20kg heavier, and started on Dynastar Legend 8000s at 184cm which were ideal (I also rented Atomic R9s and Beta Rides beforehand but hated them). You could go for those at 178, or maybe the 4800s (which are a bit narrower), both are widely available for hire. The other ski you see a huge number of are B2s. The old Salomon 1080s are also a pretty decent allround touring ski.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I agree with Graham although I would say go for a 170cm ski with a 78-80mm waist. You will be amazed how much 10cm makes when you are in ski length couloirs or tight trees or forest trails. The Atomic Sweet Daddy in 170 would be a choice or maybe a Rossi B78 Respect although I've only skied the B2 incarnation. A Dynastar Legend 8000 may be ok in 172cm.

FWIW there are two of us on Sweet Daddies in this video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3478990856968324153

it may look like nice powder but the first 300m off the summit had a breakable sun crust which the SD coped with fine. David S. in white had more trouble with the snow. Jean (with the flask) is a big guy and has 170cm SDs.

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Well as I say, I have a good powder ski with the gotama and so this purchase is really something for touring. The most extreme ascent planned will be Elbrus, but generally I would like to do tours such as Haute Route and Klosters Silvretta etc.

I was looking at K2 Shuksans or Ski Trab freerandos. The Shuksan I am fairly happy with taking a 174cm but with the Trab there are 171 and 178. I like the good steady reviews for the Shuksan and expect it to be quite stable in crud and ice, but obviously the Trab has lightness in its favour as well as easy secure ski attachment and this double front shovel for powder suspension.

With the Gotamas I was thinking of having dukes fitted so that I can use them as a pleasure ride either for cat / heli skiing or lift served off piste, and then with the more serious rando skis I can do a few tours. I am certainly not into rando racing and so downhill stability is still a must.

I like ti when skiing gets more serious it is so much fun to thinka dn consider all the joy awaiting to be discovered!

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davidof, Great video of the dynafit test day in the Mustagh Ata section of Piste Hors.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Yes the Mustagh Ata is a ski to consider as is the Seven Summits which has the advantage of having been tested on Elbrus Happy

.

You seem to have a pretty focussed idea of what you want. I wonder if it is worth you now renting the same ski in 170 and 180 ish lengths and giving them a good ski test? My feeling is to go for a shorter length for ski touring use especially if you are going for something in the high 70s underfoot. You are not exactly a lardyboy.

After all it is free

davidof, I have spoken to a shop about the Trab and there belief is that it is a soft ski and so the 171 is too short to achieve good rebound. Although Elbrus is a desire it is not necessarily achievable this year as i need to build up my free rando experience. I may be able to get the Shuksan on a pretty sweet deal and so now just mulling over the bindings. Fritschi Explore or Naxo N2's. Lose a little weight on the shuk's but the bindings are both reasonably light.

Also the Shuk's could be pretty good for my relatively little experience in free rando.

The Freerando Light is actually a slightly stiffer and more dynamic ski. The Shuksan is torsionally one of the most rigid skis in its class but has good longitudinal flex which is good for deeper snow. A good ski but lacks a bit of "peps" in short radius turns (due to the flex perhaps).

The Movement Iki or Shaman (2008 models) would maybe be a better choice but quite long at 178/177cm. I'm as tall as you and heavier and would probably consider the 168cm model but as a rule I don't listen much to shopkeepers as they never actually seem to do any skiing Happy

.

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davidof, I'm an offer whore as my budget cannot handle 1000 euro fixes. If the Trab's are too short then I am considering K2 Shuksan, K2 Mt Baker, K2 Mt Baker Super light, Dynastar Legend 4800. I am also able to consider Fischer X-pedition Hans Kammerlander 07/08 but they seem possibly too ascent orientated for my needs.

I know possibly some purists will say I should not be swayed by deals but skiing is a damn expensive hobby and I still got loads to buy after this set up!

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I've got a pair of Movement Gladiators mounted with touring bindings. The reason I went for them was that i liked them so much as all-mountain downhillers that i bought a second pair! They're a 181 long 92 waist twintip, so not perhaps your classic touring tool, but their set up (very stiff but light, long and wide) means they suit my needs perfectly (fair enough at 5'11 and 100kg).

Point is, go for something you've ridden and like, with one eye on weight, and of course do look out for a good deal.

(incidently, movement also make AT specific skis - whatever they are!). Check out mountainspirit.co.uk -great service and knowledge from these guys for all things AT and Tele

get something a bit shorter, softer and narrower than you would normally ski off piste second hand on ebay. spend the bulk of your cash on dynafit bindings and comfy boots
that's a few years of fiddling with kit summarised in 2 sentences

You know it makes sense.

Arno, Considering I am 2 days from buying my Endorphins mean that Dynafits are a non starter. Secondly I cannot afford the Axon's yet and they are not released in UK as yet and thirdly I am not sure that 90% of my use will warrent Dynafit lightness. In a post earlier in the year answered by SZK pushed Explores with Dyna 4800 which I possibly could pick up... hmm whatever I've done the bank maths and it is all looking possible so slowly the excitement is building!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

plectrum, just my opinion snowHead

i'm a total convert to dynafits after a number of years on fritchis. ski and tour miles better than fritschis with only slight additional faff factor.
anyway, you were asking about skis and i would endorse dyna 4800s. i'd seriously look to pick some up second hand tho. you really do trash touring skis and it's nice not to have to worry too much about how much that is costing you

A snowHead

A snowHead

Arno, Your advice is a bit of a contradiction ... get touring skis second hand ... because you really do trash touring skis! (I'm not to sure this bodes well to buying second hand skis on ebay!)

ROFL ... but heh I got my boys on the case and have both the Shuksans and the 4800 at 200 euro as well as either the Diamir Explores or the Naxo NX02's at 150 so not to worried about getting them new.

I'm sure you are right about Dynafit's but I am spening huge amounts on Endorphins tomorow and although I may regret this when I could go the extra mile and get Axon's, I kinda make decisions very slowly but when they are made it is liek the unstoppable force. The endorphin decision has been made and it is very hard to turn back now .... but I will make the call.

Damn the Dynafits are light ... 7-800g per pair less than competitors, are there any downsides about dynafits?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

plectrum, dude - you have seem to have considered pairing endorphines and trab freerandos you're talking to me about contradictions Laughing

you don't buy trashed 2nd hand touring skis. you get nearly new ones. eg. i use some Blizzard Titan 9s for touring. not the lightest but not tanks either and I got them for about EUR 100 on german ebay.

downsides on dynafits - they can be a bit more of a fiddle to get into than Fritschis and *maybe* they don't release quite as reliably (but it is DIN so can't be that bad)

ps Endorphines are a great choice as a do it all boot and part of the fun of ski touring is constantly trying to work out what the best combination of kit is

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plectrum, sorry in my earlier post I was assuming you're a fairly novice tourer, from the nature of your question and vague recollections of earlier posts (and I'm little more than a dabbler myself). But you're clearly getting into this really deeply. How much touring experience do you have? If no more that 10 days (including a several night hut-to-hut) I'd agree that "I think you are intellectualizing too much". Just hire something until you're sure you want to do it big time.

If I've got your experience level wrong though, please treat this post with the derision it then deserves.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

GrahamN, I have no experience, I just talk a good game. I definately want to do it this I know since before I have known we have always skiied resorts to tour rather thn to ski fast. As an example when we ski 3V we always try to cover as much ground to get the feeling of motion. 2 years ago we did an epic resort route through all 4 valleys and then pack off piste to Les Allues, up at 7 and back at 7. Over the last few years I have just started to move into offpiste and am sure that touring is something I want to do. Routes such as Klosters Silvretta & Haute Route etc are certainly goals as well as shorter day tours from bases suh as Chamonix which opens possibilites of really enjoyable weekend jaunts from London.

I am not wealthy beyond an above average western lifestyle and so I don't want to spend money and get the wrong set up. On top of this I know that I will need to get new piste ski's fairly soon as my XRC1100 dearly need upgrade to 1400 or even possibly to move faster and meaner with World Cups. I need new bindings for my Gotama's and Markers or some freerides are a possibility. I wish to attempt a summit on skis of Elbrus which most likely would require new boots, Dynafits and new skis ... but in the meantime I need a good touring ski with downhill performance to build experience and that is where I'm currently at.

Over intellecualizing is probably my middle name but a mountain boy stuck in London has to dream otherwise it's insanity ville!

To further the crazyness I am not sure that the NX02 offer serious benefits over the NX21's a we are talking only a few hundred grams and this is also mainly negated if I remove the brakes (although not sure how good an idea this is!). I also like the 100% downhill superiorty that the NX21's have over the Nx02's.

davidof, I think when I ruly go light I wil stump up the next 1000 euro and by a complete Megaride/lite, Dynafit and light ski combo and perhaps by that time my experience would have built up on easier shorter tours to handle both the ascent and the descent on a lighter set up.

After all it is free

So plectrum, it looks like we have another contradiction - not huge amounts of money to splash out, but looking at forking out for specialised gear for something of which you have as yet no experience, Puzzled

. Big off-piste days doing downhill-only lift-served are a totally different experience to touring, so I really would hold off buying until you've experienced it. The only similar experience I can think of is full days hiking in foul weather in the Lake District - you have to like taking the rough with the smooth - and I'm sufficient of a masochist to quite enjoy those. I can just reiterate my previous advice of hire until you know you like it - and maybe try out some different stuff so you know what kind of compromises you're willing to make between up/downhill. I did probably about 4-5 days on hire gear until I decided to get my own.

i would definitely go for fritschis over naxos for the reasons mentioned by davidof.
i happen to have some freerides (not freeride plus) being removed from some skis as we speak which i could let go for a fair sum wink

just read your last post again. i'd just slap some reasonably solid (freeride/freeride plus/nx21) touring bindings on your gots and see how you go from there. gots aren't that heavy given their size and will be fine for an hour or two uphill

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plectrum, Fristchis get an awful slapping from some, and I do know of someone who had a 'close call' with a fritschi falling apart in a rather exposed location, but really could have been any binding. Explorers will be fine for 99% of touring, I had a couple of pairs on various set-ups (still have a pair from '01 on some original Pocket Rockets which I still use as rock skis) and have used them for everything from heliskiing in AK to Haute Routes etc to steeps in the Alps. Have just put some freerides on a pair of skis, but not really convinced that they're worth the extra weight as I try to avoid jumping off anything too large these days...

Skis, worth looking at G3's. Was fondling a couple of pairs in Albertville the other day and they look awesome...can't remember models though.

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GrahamN, I definately know the direction I want to go, rough with smooth is not any issue what so ever. I also already have ski's which will be suitable for lift serviced powder and although I would be keen for an upgrade i already have fast carvers that do the job on the piste. This is like the next piece in the jigsaw!

I also perhaps need to make something more clear, I want to climb Elbrus and I would like to ski summit it and ski down. For this I have taken advice and the feedback was get plenty experience in European ski touring and that will prepare you to a certain extent for the rigours of altitude and descent.

On top of this there is no doubt in my mind that I want to move into ski tour, and there is also no doubt that I will buy over the next few days. Personally I ma not a particularly big fan of hiring equipment. Firstly it is expensive every time you do it and after only a few weeks = the purchase price of a set up. Secondly I find that when I have gear staring me in the face it urges me to use it more and more and finally I do have faith in the reviews of the cognescenti.

I am verging back to Nx02's for the tour set up.

Arno, I will pm you as may be interested if your freerides could work on my Goats.

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plectrum - if you do go for the freerides, you may like this site for details about mounting them - particularly useful is the pdf mounting template - I've just used it for mounting my freerides on a new set of Hagan Heats & can vouch for its accuracy.

Ok the decision has been made!

174cm K2 Shuksan 05/06 model - 200euro
Naxo Nx21 binding 07/08 model - 200euro
Garmont Endorphin 07/08 mode - £350
Boot fitting - £120

Skiing is so expensive it makes me cry!

After much consideration I decided that more likely than not the first year of touring will contain more gentle ascents and plenty of downhill so the burlier binding is probably the way forward. This also made more sense with the Endorphins. I was tempted to go for the K2 Mt Baker superlights as they had 88 cm underfoot and I felt would be nicer in pow pow but at 80 euro less the Shuksans were too good to resist.

The reason I dumped the Nx02 idea was becuase if I enjoy touring to the extent that it becomes serious then the route forward is Dynafit, dyanfit and er dynafit and this requires a whole new set rather than makign a small 300 g saving for much less stability.

Thanks for the reponses, even emailing Naxo brought a sharp and quick response and thanks to Sport Conrad for once again being so cheap! (If I didnt need to buy my Endorphins from the bootfitter in London then I would have saved a further £100!!)

Anyhow... now to book onto a ski tour with Eagles!

You know it makes sense.

Reading this thread makes me think I got it completely wrong.

Touring ski should be shorter than my usual - actually 3cm longer

Lighter: well it is, but only because my normal set-up is Kneissl Tankers, not quite fetherlites...

Should buy 2nd hand: bought new

Good thing I only plan 1-3 hr ascents...

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

120 quid for bootfitting - eh?? Shocked

Are they being surgically attached (by the spice girls in nurses uniforms)???

A snowHead

A snowHead

horizon, If the ski is a little linger I think you get better run out so it glides easier uphill, and as such faster movement. I think though for tight turns i.e. couloir or treeline shorter is a little better.

barry, They are being surgically attached yes, this includes a custom sole as well as a couple of hours work by a trained bootfitter, i think it is fine, actually considering what some doctors feel i think it is cheap.

Arno, they have the intro week in klosters whilst i am there! emailed toursec but no reply.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

plectrum, you may be better off going straight to the organiser. I'll PM access details so you can see the full tour descriptions

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Arno,

I am in Arolla in Jan...... when..?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

JT, Jan 5-12 (I'm not doing it BTW)
Arolla is such a nice place. Need an excuse to go back sometime. Great article about it in Montagnes magazine recently

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Arno,

I will there late Jan...messing about in the vallees of VDA, Arolla and Les Collons/Verbier.

How is your LG trip working out..?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

well, i think i have just about got it sorted. we're arriving late on friday 7th so we should try to co-ordinate to be in the same place on at least one day, even if we aren't all skiing together. a couple of apres ski beers and some tall tales should be on the cards! we're staying down in bourg d'oisans so easy access for the "Big 3"

my worries that new job may impinge on skiing have lessened a little. seems I am likely to be on a training course for most of Feb in California. Am investigating Friday evening flights up to Tahoe, SLC etc snowHead

After all it is free

Arno,

All sounds great to me..see you there..

Tahoe..!!!!!! Laughing

Arno, thanks have spekon now with the organiser and it sounds like a truly enjoyable introduction! Yippee my boots are fitted and collected I may wear them to go to bed in!

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plectrum, welcome to the wonderful world of earning your turns

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