 Poster: A snowHead
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......not being the best in your group? Does it effect your skiing? When you're the best (percieved) how well do you ski? 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 19-11-07 21:02; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
as long as I am not the worst, it is ok...
In our group each dog has their day..or week, when they improve their skiing the most in that week and you should give them credit for that
Now, the only person I please is me. in that situation... I can't do anything else about how others ski..but I would like to think that everyone is supportive about things and if you nail a run, then the others tell you skied it well. I like this type of bonding in a group.
It is like looking at all your footie medals at the local standard you played......and re-living that in the bar..!!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So far I've always been the worst, and it doesn't bother me. My friends ski by themselves in the morning whilst the kids are in ski school and I practice. In the afternoon they help with the children and offer me pointers if I ask. I'm no good at skiing - I find it personally frustrating that I can't ski to my own satisfaction, but it makes no difference to the people I ski with.
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I'm often the worst... Just ask Fastman , Helluvaskier and Double Diamond , oh and HelluvaDad(sorry nearly forgot him).... I don't mind I'm used to not being the best or even close to the best skier around.... I ski for me....
I do think those that think they are too good to ski with others have personal problems...
I'll ski with anyone, and have skied with some pretty damn good skiers who would always take the time to ski with those of us less capable than themselves... in doing so they encourage us to improve so that they get more ski buddies.... and more capable ski buddies....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I was the worst skier in my group in Tignes a couple of weeks ago, by a significant margin. The rest of the group were very encouraging to me so I wasn't worried about being less than competent. I don't think it matters just so long as you can get down the same terrain, even if it's not pretty or fast. To look on the positive side I improved the most 
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Hah, easy! When I'm not the best in the group I watch the best and try to learn.
When I am (perceived to be) the best in the group I fall over asap because u know they're willing U to
"Ha ha, Dad fell over first out of all of us!!!!"
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Don't mind a bit - seems to me that one of the best ways of learning and of pushing yourself, is to ski with someone better than yourself, that's if they're kind enough to let you tag along. I get embarrassed if I'm holding up a whole group of people, though - that's not to be recommended. Also, I do like to ski with a group in which, at least from time to time, I am competent enough to be at the front. In other words, I'm happy not to be the best, but would rather not be significantly the worst.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If I'm the worst, I look at the others to see how I can get better, If I'm the best I try and help the others (if they want help that is).
In my experience there's always someone better and there's always someone worse. As long as everyone's having a good time who cares.
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Spyderman, yep.... I'm with you... I have even skied with a downs syndrome woman in her 50's who was a complete beginner.... so what if we barely got even part way up the beginners slope...we had a great time... And the tears of thanks from her sister at the end of the week, when she skied unaided down that same beginner run and declared she was going to the special olympics as a skier next time, will always remain one of the highlights of my times skiing...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Spyderman, little tiger, You're right, being able to help/encourage others is another good reason to enjoy not being the worst. I love being the back marker of a group, as well as skiing first from time to time. But to go back to the original supplementary question, I can't remember when I last, if ever, perceived myself as the best in a group!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A race course clock tells who's the best, and is really the only arena where it matters. To me, the world of freesking is all about just having fun playing on the mountain with friends.
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FastMan, yeah but you are always the best skier!!!!! 
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You know it makes sense.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| A race course clock tells who's the best, and is really the only arena where it matters. To me, the world of freesking is all about just having fun playing on the mountain with friends. |
Bwwwahhhaaaaaa.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FastMan, Does the clock tell who's the best? Or just the fastest? How do you measure 'Best'?
little tiger, Stalking is against the law.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It depends entirely on your definition of best and worst. Obviously when skiing with students I am usually the best from a technical standpoint (but I may not be a faster skier than some). When skiing with other instructors or high level skiers I'm almost certain to be the slowest in the group, but not necessarily the worst from a technical standpoint. Either way it doesn't matter - you should ski for yourself and not for others.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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P.S. However, I'd love to be the best one day........just once
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 18-11-07 14:12; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There's something so extraordinary about skiing that just the sheer enjoyment of doing it is normally enough for most people - it certainly is for me. I do agree that skiing with more experienced or technically competent people is a bonus, but so is encouraging people who may be new to skiing.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Well, it was your idea - how do you feel about it?
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little tiger,
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Over terraining is stupid
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In my experience it is virtually inevitable with skiers of a different level .
Most of us when outside lessons ski not to learn but for fun and to be sociable. Very few of us have the experience to judge exactly when the weakest member of a group will get overterrained. It's not deliberate and its not unfriendly its just something thet happens on a very frequent basis in real life skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The group I ski with are all of a similar standard so I'm probably not the worst but I'm not as competitive or as confident. There is often the need for a couple of the guys to be at the front and leading the way. I do try to concentrate on making sure I'm skiing correctly (or as correctly as it is possible fo me to do any way )
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T Bar, I take great pains to look after less experienced skiers when I ski with them.... I let them pick terrain and speed.... I even have had instructor friends advise me on suitable runs for some of the less experienced I ski with....
Ditto my ski friends at home always did the same with me when I was learning... We skied the runs my instructor had Ok'd for me... not the ones my friends would want to ski...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger,
Good for you but I suspect you are the exception in this. Most people I ski with and see skiing it is the most eperienced member who tends to choose the runs or it is a group decision. A lot of the time there is no instructor friend to fall back on and judging by the times I see instructors talking clients down a hill they get it wrong as well.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 18-11-07 15:43; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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T Bar, quite. The consequences of over-terraining are very dependent on the type of skier you are. I learn primarily by challenging myself until it goes wrong, pick myself up, work out where my technique proved inadequate, then step back to slightly easier terrain, have a go at working on what went wrong and go back to the tougher terrain and (hopefully) do it right this time. Without overfacing myself up front I wouldn't have realised there was a problem in the first place. If you get fazed by getting it wrong (and falling over) though, over-terraining is probably less advisable.
Wot admin wrote, pretty much word for word. I've often been the weakest in the group, and it's always been a tremendous learning experience. On the fewer times when I've been the best in the group, I've either ended up being back-marker and helping the weaker members of the group along as needed (as they're then normally quite a way behind the instructor/leader). Or searched out the tougher variations of line around the route the group is going, or giving it a bit more welly. Frequently this results in me then watching the rest of the group sailing serenely by while picking myself up off the snow.
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| T Bar wrote: |
little tiger,
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Over-terraining is stupid
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In my experience it is virtually inevitable with skiers of a different level .
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Not necessarily inevitable... the group I skied with in Colorado certainly did not ever put me in that situation and they were all much better skiers than me.... I think every skier in the group stopped at some point and checked with me how I felt about the terrain we were choosing to share.... and the conditions.... some checked repeatedly... it is not essential to stay together for every run either - it is quite easy to have a couple of folks take a fast run and regroup at a meeting point... or to rest one member for a run... etc etc...
It does require thinking about the other people...
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You know it makes sense.
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| T Bar wrote: |
little tiger,
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Over terraining is stupid
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In my experience it is virtually inevitable with skiers of a different level .
Most of us when outside lessons ski not to learn but for fun and to be sociable. Very few of us have the experience to judge exactly when the weakest member of a group will get overterrained. It's not deliberate and its not unfriendly its just something thet happens on a very frequent basis in real life skiing. |
I agree. The only way to ensure that everyone in a typical social group is totally within their comfort zone at all times (and in itself that is not necessarily a good thing) but not bored rigid is for everyone to ski alone. To be honest in a mixed group it isn't that difficult to compromise - its usually easier to skip a coffee break and get some faster/more challenging laps in on your own then drag everyone somewhere they won't enjoy if you're a faster skier.
The other point is that unless you are almost a local at a resort you won't know how exactly runs that look like they may be ok will pan out on any particular day. A run that is heaven at 10am can be absolute hell at 4pm (Pierre a Ric anyone?)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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little tiger,
However much planning you do or do not put in and in general whereas you try and be considerate to weaker members of a group, unless someone is an expert judge of the point where overterraining happens and knows the slopes and conditions inimately it usually happens in real life skiing in my experience.
I agree with GrahamN, though it ain't always a bad thing unless it is dangerous, you can learn through being over terrained as well, even if it is not a great place to develop technique.
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Poster: A snowHead
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GrahamN, challenge and over-terraining I see as two different things... I am frequently challenged by my instructors.... it is IIRC a recognised teaching thing that you spend at least some time in a "challenging" situation and then return to comfortable for learning...
Over- terraining includes the health and psychological profile of the skier... IMHO it is part of the "art" of ski instruction.... to select a suitable challenge... However I have rarely seen experienced instructors get it wrong... it is their bread and butter...
My ex did get fooled - by a woman who kept telling him she was a Level 2 instructor... as an instructor trainer who had worked in a few countries he had an expectation of what she meant by this.... unfortunately she was a CSIA 2 and he was unaware of how this fitted into other systems... he took her out into some deep and very crusty snow on a steep slope in a storm... and came back quiet distressed because he made her cry.... He kept saying "level twos can ski everything" and looking very puzzled and worried... it took a bit for him to get over this mistake as he hates over-terraining and has a massive return rate for female intermediates because he issues marked piste maps to each client to overcome this problem....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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little tiger,
I think the point is though when you are skiing in a social group it is not with an instructor and people will feel intimidated and 'overterrained' if the word has any meaning rather than challenged. Not always a bad thing, but getting back to the original point of the thread not always pleasant when you are the weakest member of a group.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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T Bar, I have felt challenged by skiing with some friends - they get me to ski a little faster or chose a slope I might avoid on my own... but they would not ski me in a situation where my technique would deteriorate badly... As soon as they see any signs of that they would be desisting... that is how I got dragged around snowbasin steep off-piste in poor vis in tricky snow ... my friend watching how I reacted decided the terrain was ok so we stayed there with another friend rather than get him to change line or speed... he would stop and watch and adjust his targets for meeting places according to my needs... we did just fine.... ditto the day after with his wife and I sending him to drop the cornices while we hunted the windblown stashes....
I guess you do need for folks to be able to detect those technical changes - which may require some dreaded lessons and learning...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, What do i feel? I feel we've had another thread hijacked in favour of a therapy session and audience with a particular Snowhead. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah, the other night I kept postin'
'Til I woke from that terrible dream
And I called up my pal Jack Daniels
And his partner Jimmy Beam
And we skied alone, yeah with nobody else
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
If you don't know the group, then you have to be careful but it is relative. I bet you vet a few newbies on the first couple of runs...in fact, that can be the point of it sometimes...to see if they can keep up. But then you go somewhere off-piste and the technique might not stack up quite as well, depending of that person's experience there.
Having said that, I'd say mostly, terrain isn't the problem that speed might be.
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little tiger,
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I guess you do need for folks to be able to detect those technical changes - which may require some dreaded lessons and learning...
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I have had a few lessons in my time but none of them to date have involved looking for small technical changes in my friends skiing.
SMALLZOOKEEPER,
Apologies for the thread hijack
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I am always the worst in my group unless there is someone who has never skied before. My husband used to get frustrated until we came to an agreemet - he does his thing with "le club noir" and I pootle along on the blues and greens. And we catch up fpr apres and I regale him with how slow it is possible to go without stopping! I don't ski to push myself I ski beacuse it makes me feel good. As long as everyone is achieving what they want I think its fine. I think you have tolay down those rules at the beginning of the holiday though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
FastMan, Does the clock tell who's the best? Or just the fastest? How do you measure 'Best'?
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Obviously, in a race, first equals best. People are free to measure best how they choose, but from a general skiing standpoint I measure best by the stable of skills one possesses, the level to which they've developed those skills, and their ability to blend and employ them by planned desire or spontaneous need on a variety of terrain.
And having worked with racers of all levels for numerous decades, I can assure you that the racers who excel in my "general skiing measure of best" are the ones who consistently finish at the top of the heap in the race course.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| FastMan, Does the clock tell who's the best? Or just the fastest? How do you measure 'Best'? |
No, yes, and impossible are the quick answers.
Those are interesting questions, and worthy of their own thread.
In the technical events, you could, broadly, say that the clock tells you who skied the "best" turns, on average, from top to bottom on the course. But start numbers / course conditions, physical condition, and to a certain extent equipment also play a role.
In the speed events, equipment can play a much larger role, especially on flatter courses or when new snow makes the course slower. In those cases, "best" is often measured by looking at the split times and seeing who was fastest through the more turny, "technical" sections of the course.
How do you measure 'Best'? There are many ways to "judge" who is best, but the clock is the only way I can think of that comes close to actually measuring it empirically. ("The first one across the line in a skiercross course is the best", maybe? No actual clock involved, but potentially more "judging", if racers have "blocked" each other, and protests arise, etc. See short-track speed-skating.)
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