 Poster: A snowHead
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Earlier this year I broke my leg when I fell and one of my hire skis failed to release. I had 2 or 3 weeks skiing under my belt and being reasonably fit and used to other balance based sports had progressed fairly quickly. I needed surgery to put a metal rod inside the tibia (shin bone), and am still not allowed to do high impact activities such as running, although I have been told that I can ski this winter. Part of me thinks I’d be mad to ski again and part thinks I should go for it- lightening doesn’t strike twice and all that. I feel lucky that it wasn’t more serious.
From other posts I know that my skill level doesn’t warrant having my own skis, but is there anything to suggest that buying skis and having them checked and setup properly is safer than hiring? Obviously there is always a risk of accidents, but I want to do as much as possible to minimise this.
I live near the new Chill Factore in Manchester, any suggestions on where to buy; I’m obviously more interested in quality of service than price. I’ve seen mention of a machine for checking that the bindings release at the specified DIN setting- is there a list of outlets who can check this? What should I be looking for in a set of skis and bindings? Other than having them serviced regularly, is there anything else I should be doing?
I’m almost 40, male, 71kg, 170cm and have my own boots size 307mm. My hire skis looked to be in good condition to my untrained eye and were supposedly set to 6.5 din. I think they were Head XRC500’s approx 160cm. I’m not blaming the hire company, but I think I would feel happier knowing that all possible precautions had been taken.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skiermartin, I'm the same weight and height as you but set my ski bindings at 5.5-6. I think 6.5 is too high for someone who has only skiied 2-3 weeks.
I admire your attitude at wanting to give it another shot.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skiermartin, Interesing . . .
I entered your data into dinsetting.com and put you in as Type II skier: your din came out as 6.25.
Drops to 5.25 for Type I
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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See http://www.forskiers.com/gear/din.asp and http://coffee.sdsc.edu/rcw/din_setting
If I've entered your details correctly, their recommendation is between 6 and 6.25, but of course you should try to get an expert opinion rather than relying on an Internet page. So much will depend on how well the bindings and boots are maintained and set up that I'd want it done by someone who really knows their stuff, which is why I always hire, and always from a well-known shop with excellent staff, but at the end of the day they're still reading the DIN setting from a chart on the desk, and having some idea of what you think it should be is always a good idea so you can cross-check their setting.
When you go back to skiing, get some advice on what would help, but I'd suggest maybe setting the bindings to 5.5 would at least help your confidence, since they're more likely to release if you do fall over.
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is your height or weight more important. i would assume weight, but im no expert as i only ever hire. Im completly disproportionate im 5ft5 (162cm) and i only weigh 8 stone (52kg), which is more important for me to take into account.
it says i should be about 4.75, but i wouldnt have a clue what size boots i get, so i made an educated geuss of 270.
Does ajusting the DIN setting merely take a screwdriver?
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I got conflicting advice concerning the relative importance of the various factors in DIN selection. I'm a lady of around 5'6" but rather heavier than I'd like. I am also 50, and nervous of injury, so tend to be cautious, due to having broken my ankle a few years ago.
1. "Weight is the prime factor, but we'll reduce it a bit as you're a beginner" - and they set my bindings at about 6.5 for my first ever ski lesson (at Xscape) last December.
2. "No, No - the way you are likely to ski is most important as is your age - you won't be creating great force when skiing yet, and you need them to definitely release if you fall". In the resort - and they set them at 3.5!
I have since then, after discussing it on here, had mine set to 4 and they have NEVER accidentally come off, and indeed didn't when I fell (because there was no twisting motion in the fall), which suggests to me that for now that is high enough a setting.
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FWIW I broke my femur very badly skiing with my own skis (pics here), and bindings that released fine for me, however in the back of my mind was a possible issue with the bindings, I did replace them mostly for my confidence!
So it may do wonders for your confidence to have your own skis and bindings???
IMHO pre-releasing is as dangerous as not releasing, so I would use the online charts pointed to and a decent ski tech to get them set right.
regards,
Greg
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skiermartin, Wintersteiger Speedtronic or functional equivalent, IMO it is a very good idea to know that the release setting shown in the window is actually what the binding will do with your own boots.
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| Christopher wrote: |
| it says i should be about 4.75, but i wouldnt have a clue what size boots i get, so i made an educated geuss of 270. |
I'm a size 4.5 boot (I think!) which is deffo a 23.5 Salomon boot which has a sole length of 275mm.
I think you might find your sole length is a wee bit bigger!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
IMHO pre-releasing is as dangerous as not releasing
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we've had this discussion before, and my view is that for many of us, this is not true. It sounds a bit like those people who claim that without a seat belt some people can be safely thrown clear of a crash. Obviously that is true, as a statement, but it doesn't mean it makes sense to drive around without one. What are the statistics about people who have been injured because of pre-release? What is so dangerous about pre-release for a beginner or moderate skier on easy, pisted slopes? I can see that extreme skiers can't be doing with their skis coming off, but for many of us the overall risks of bindings set a bit higher have to be greater than having them set a big lower.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My thoughts on this is are that if you assume the hire equipment is servicable and fully functioning then any errors in the DIN settings are an error by the staff in the shop rather than the equipment. Therefore, if you take my situation, where I will have my settings with my own boots in the binding checked by the lady in my ski resort, if she is capable of getting them wrong on hire skis then she is just as capable of getting them wrong with my own equipment. To my mind there must be a point where you either trust the skills of the shop you use or you don't and when you are inexperienced you tend to put your 'legs' in the hands of your chosen store. I would be interested to know if there is a recognised qualification that in the ski resorts worldwide that you should for to enable to you to expect a minimum standard of competence in setting this sort of setting up, or indeed for obtaining other advice, such as instructions for safety gear etc.
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Megamum, my stereo volume is set to 6. Someone else looks at a table and sets it at 6.5. How loud is it?
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You know it makes sense.
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comprex, Sorry....way over my head!! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
To my mind there must be a point where you either trust the skills of the shop you use or you don't
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I agree, if it's a shop you use regularly and get to know. But that's not always possible, and we do have a responsibility to be "informed consumers" by reading and learning as much as possible, and taking the opportunity to pick the brains of more experienced people, like the number of snowheads who have actually worked in ski shops and been trained in all this stuff. When I hire skis in an unfamiliar place I routinely underestimate my weight and skiing experience, as well as telling them I have a bad knee. I have my own bindings so low that Snow and Rock once made me sign a disclaimer to say that I had not accepted their advice. I know the way I ski, and my strengths and weaknesses, and I decided I wanted them lower than advised. Three seasons later I can't remember a time when they pre-released. I am careful not to jam them on with ice on my boots etc etc. I do ski fairly fast, in the right place, but I am a non aggressive skier and I don't do steep rocky icy couloirs where a pre-release could be a disaster! Being a beginner snowboarder I'm not afraid of falling, but I am very afraid of twisting my knee badly again and being out of action for weeks. I lend skis to friends with little experience, some of them no lightweights, and would never set the bindings at 6.5.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, The printed DIN indicator is a label. The volume control on my stereo is a label. I can set either to 6. Someone internationally certified can look in a table and set either to 6.
Unless the performance is measured at that setting all we know is the position of the marker against that label.
We do not know what the release force of a particular boot from that binding is, nor do we know how loudly a particular speaker will play from that stereo, if at all, unless we a) test release of the boot from the binding and b) listen to the speakers. The numbers on the dial are just numbers on the dial. You would never set a stereo volume while the thing is off, and you cannot listen to it. Blindly setting boot release according to the numbers on the dial is analogous.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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comprex, I would disagree, there has to be a base line for all manufacturers. A din of 6 on Atomics's is the same as 6 on Head ski's thats what an international standard is for.
Now I know there will be an amount of +/- in the labeling up the slider marker but that should only be a small variance else wise why bother with them at all and this does fall into the standard.
Should we put all ski's through a ski binding torque testing machines (SpyderJon would be happy for that) before they are used?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 4-11-07 17:07; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skiermartin, welcome to snowHeads 
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Thanks for all your replies.
It seems like a setting around 5.5 would be more suitable. Are DIN settings proportional i.e. is a 6 50% higher than a 4?
The charts seem very approximate- I'd only have to lose a few kg, or have boots a few mm longer to drop to a 4. This would seem to make a far bigger difference than a slight inaccuaracy between the printed scale and actual release setting on an individual pair of skis.
Kitenski, your xray looks sadly familiar- glad to hear that you recovered and it hasn't stopped you. I can appreciate why you replaced your bindings. You must have been a bit nervous first time out?
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| if you assume the hire equipment is servicable and fully functioning |
I think I'd rather not make that assumption. If you're somewhere new, how do you know if the shop and their kit is any good.
Maybe I'm overcautious, but I tend to agree with comprex. Surely if there was no need for the torque testing machines, they wouldn't exist? It can't do any harm to have them tested.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skiermartin, Hi and welcome to Snowheads.
I would agree that well used binding do need checking as they will wear (however what is a lot of use for modern ski's?)so your statement is valid but in what timeline I dont know.
I had mind done and found out they were still on after 2yrs/6 weeks of skiing.
To get your own binding checked (you need your boots as well) this man can sort you out. http://www.jonsskituning.co.uk/content/view/26/39/
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 4-11-07 17:46; edited 1 time in total
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skiermartin, personally, especially after your accident, which sounds grim, I wouldn't set the bindings higher than 4 (my husband, a little heavier than you, and a more experienced skier, has his at 4). Assuming that at your stage you are not leaping down cliffs etc., set them low, then just crank them up a little if you do have problems with pre-release.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
comprex, I would disagree, there has to be a base line for all manufacturers. A din of 6 on Atomics's is the same as 6 on Head ski's
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Ah, no. Atomic scribe the release setting scale after they've assembled the binding.
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thats what an international standard is for.
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You've got that backwards. When it's tested, the 6 has to meet the same standard. If it hasn't been tested you don't know. And I challenge you or anyone to accurately predict the performance of 100% of all mechanical assemblies before they are actually assembled. Which, you'll note, is when most binding release scales get printed / painted onto the binding.
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else wise why bother with them at all |
Repeatability and predictability of results -once- familiar with the function of the -individual- unit, not it's brothers of the same model. Same reason stereos have volume scales on them.
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Should we put all ski's through a ski binding torque testing machines (SpyderJon would be happy for that) before they are used? |
You had better believe it. I cannot write a big enough YES.
PS
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| (SpyderJon would be happy for that) |
I doubt it. Painstaking, tedious, timeconsuming, there's much less in it for the tech than the skier.
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| comprex wrote: |
And I challenge you or anyone to accurately predict the performance of 100% of all mechanical assemblies before they are actually assembled.
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Oh! do you fly? drive a car? cross a suspension bridge? etc
I use to work for a component manufacture for the aircraft business. Yes they are tested to find their tolerances but the planning and initial manufacturing stage it has to be very close to the ideal, theres not many company's that can go on testing without care or results. Once a product is approved it can be manufactured to a great degree of compliance.
We are not talking here about a prototype but a device with a tested history.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I am a heavy and aggressive skier, for years I had my binding set "correctly" on 8.5 without any problems. After a minor calf tear (slow forward twist in a powder filled stream) I got back on my skis after a couple of days and was taking it very easy, and knocked the setting back to 4, initially just until my leg was fully healed. As my leg healed I gradually increased the setting, but never went passed 6.5 and there they have stayed for the last 3 seasons without any problems with the skis coming off. I do occasionally put it up to 8.5 for pitches where a lost ski would be trouble!
I think that if you ski reasonably smoothly then the book settings can be a little on the high side and you can afford to set them on the cautious side.
In answer to your question I think getting your own skis is a really good idea, then you can get a top of the range binding and be sure they work well with your boots by having them tested and through use, plus you get the physiological benefit of knowing that everything is 100%. I also agree that regular skiers should become very familiar with their equipment.
I did have a friend who broke his fibia at the line of the boot cuff jumping off a small hut roof, then did exactly the same thing again the next year (same roof) so you might want to think about getting boots of a different cuff height and avoid roofs.
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| skiermartin wrote: |
Kitenski, your xray looks sadly familiar- glad to hear that you recovered and it hasn't stopped you. I can appreciate why you replaced your bindings. You must have been a bit nervous first time out?
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Yeh pretty nervous! I broke the leg in march one ski season, skied in May the season after in Scotland just to see wether I still wanted to or not!!
I did it in a schuss, and tbh it takes a few years to get my schuss speed back!!
The good news for me, and I hope for you, is that by doing the physio and all the exercises I made a full recovery, and still play hockey, ski, run etc etc.
Pam, I disagree, if my binding pre-releases on an icy mogul slope and I bounce down to the bottom, that to me is as dangerous as not releasing. Same as if it pre-releases in some steep powder and sends me base over apex, potentially over a cliff etc etc.
regards,
Gerg
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I do occasionally put it up to 8.5 for pitches where a lost ski would be trouble!
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I have a difficult time visualizing adjusting binding settings on a run by run basis. Do you really? Or do you simply set it higher on days you might encounter "no fall" situation?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kitenski, I did say
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Assuming that at your stage you are not leaping down cliffs etc., set them low, then just crank them up a little if you do have problems with pre-release.
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I don't ski the sort of stuff where losing a ski would be a disaster, and neither do the large majority of skiers second or third week skiers who potter round pisted blue and red runs, often with their bindings cranked up to quite unnecessary levels. Few skiers run any risk of serious injury from losing a ski in a rocky couloir, or steep icy moguls, and bouncing to the bottom, and they should be knowledgeable enough to adjust their own DINs. A lot of less experienced skiers are injured because their skis exercise huge torque on the legs, even in very unspectacular falls on tame pistes, before they release. I did qualify my comments above by noting that expert skiers don't want their skis coming off unexpectedly. How many of us are expert skiers? The request for advice was from someone who has only skied a few weeks, and already broken his leg.
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| Quote: |
I did qualify my comments above by noting that expert skiers don't want their skis coming off unexpectedly.
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pam w, while I agree that for the situation with the OP, there's little risk in pre-release, I disagree that ONLY EXPERT SKIER need to worry about pre-release. I don't consider myself expert. Far from it. Though I do ski blacks regularly. And there's been more than one occasion that the run turned out to be icy and steeper than what I had in mind. I can side slip down short pitch of piste like that no problem. However, if one does fall in situation like that, a too-light setting of DIN would likely result in the ski coming off with relatively small force, leaving one with no effective tool to stop the slide.
That's why the DIN table has skiing ability factor already build in. For a beginer of my same weight and height, the recommended DIN setting from the chart would be lower than it would recommend for me (upper intermediate).
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You know it makes sense.
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There is little difference in some of the settings in these charts. Are the final settings in units of wheelbarrows? I notice that the increment appears to be 0.25. Is an increment of 0.25 significant? As has been mentioned above is the increase in torque with value, linear, exponential etc. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bit off topic, but wondering... For me the din setting was 8.5, does that seem regularly high? Not sure if thats the din setting on my skies. Either way, never experienced pre-release.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
kitenski, I did say
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Assuming that at your stage you are not leaping down cliffs etc., set them low, then just crank them up a little if you do have problems with pre-release.
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I don't ski the sort of stuff where losing a ski would be a disaster, and neither do the large majority of skiers second or third week skiers who potter round pisted blue and red runs, often with their bindings cranked up to quite unnecessary levels. Few skiers run any risk of serious injury from losing a ski in a rocky couloir, or steep icy moguls, and bouncing to the bottom, and they should be knowledgeable enough to adjust their own DINs. A lot of less experienced skiers are injured because their skis exercise huge torque on the legs, even in very unspectacular falls on tame pistes, before they release. I did qualify my comments above by noting that expert skiers don't want their skis coming off unexpectedly. How many of us are expert skiers? The request for advice was from someone who has only skied a few weeks, and already broken his leg. |
Hang on a sec Pam, you've taken a leap from pre-releasing to being massively cranked up, note I didn't say that! I'm all for properly adjusted bindings, but am trying to make a point (maybe badly) that you need to get the right settings, not just "set them low and tweak them up" or indeed, not, set them high!
regards,
Greg
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The most common "error" I've seen with hire boots is that workers in a hurry adjust the DIN at the front... but don't even touch the back!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
IMHO pre-releasing is as dangerous as not releasing, so I would use the online charts pointed to and a decent ski tech to get them set right.
Greg |
Hi Greg
On a quest for knowledge, could you explain that for me please.
The not releasing I understand, but not so the pre-releasing
TIA
Chris
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| kermit wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
IMHO pre-releasing is as dangerous as not releasing, so I would use the online charts pointed to and a decent ski tech to get them set right.
Greg |
Hi Greg
On a quest for knowledge, could you explain that for me please.
The not releasing I understand, but not so the pre-releasing
TIA
Chris |
Hi Chris,
This is all my very humble opinion, but as I posted above:
Pam, I disagree, if my binding pre-releases on an icy mogul slope and I bounce down to the bottom, that to me is as dangerous as not releasing. Same as if it pre-releases in some steep powder and sends me base over apex, potentially over a cliff etc etc.
NOTE: I'm not saying crank your bindings too high either, they need to be set "right"
regards,
Greg
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Greg
Cheers for that. Seems pretty logical when you see it on 'paper'
Chris
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An example of pre-releasing going bad... A professional freeride skier was off-piste when his ski pre-released, he was going too fast on bumpy terrain to control it with one ski and ended up tumbling down the mountain. End result? Dislocated hip, which I believe is the hardest joint in your body to dislocate.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| comprex wrote: |
And I challenge you or anyone to accurately predict the performance of 100% of all mechanical assemblies before they are actually assembled.
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Oh! do you fly? drive a car?
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Certainly. Not a good analogy. Those are continuously tested.
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cross a suspension bridge?
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Not suspension, and I don't have a choice. http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1338294.html Unlike bridges, I can control the testing of bindings.
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I use to work for a component manufacture for the aircraft business. Yes they are tested to find their tolerances but the planning and initial manufacturing stage it has to be very close to the ideal, theres not many company's that can go on testing without care or results. Once a product is approved it can be manufactured to a great degree of compliance.
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Then you are aware of "accumulation of tolerances" AKA tolerance stack-up.
Great degree of compliance is a statistical description that helps the OP not one whit for he is not assured that his is not the exception.
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Gosh, this has started a lively debate.
Getting the bindings set at a sensible level, agreed by both you and the tech, and having them torque tested seems to be a good idea.
What difference is there between top of the range and basic bindings- is it just weight which wouldn't bother me, or do I need to be getting a certain level of binding?
I hadn't thought about new boots. I've got a noticable lump on my shin where the bone is thicker, so I guess I might find the boot uncomfortable.
Greg, thanks for your honesty in what it was like first time back. I'm not going to give up other sports, and figure that I could just as easily had an accident walking the dog. Did you have an IM Nail too? For those fortunate enough not to know about this- its where you have a metal rod inserted inside the hollow bone to act as a brace. Don't worry- I won't go into any more graphic details!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
A professional freeride skier was off-piste when his ski pre-released, he was going too fast on bumpy terrain to control it with one ski and ended up tumbling down the mountain. End result? Dislocated hip, which I believe is the hardest joint in your body to dislocate.
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A very good example of the point I am making. A professional freerider definitely needs to be fearful of pre-release, and will have the knowledge and experience to know exactly what is the optimum DIN setting for himself/herself. But a second or third week skier on easy pistes? Or an elderly lady who skis sedately and smoothly and has a dodgy knee? Despite not having the same knowledge and experience we have to make a decision about what poses the most severe risk to us, for the way we ski. And, despite all the above, I stick to my argument that for most skiers, and especially beginners and early intermediates, having a leg badly twisted by a ski, during a fall (especially a slow speed fall) is a much bigger risk than the kind of accident described above. To suggest that there is a "right" DIN setting which can be determined largely with reference to the skiers weight, seems very dubious. Another skier with my weight, and my experience, might be regularly hurling themselves down steep icy mogul slopes. Moi, non.
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| skiermartin wrote: |
| Greg, thanks for your honesty in what it was like first time back. I'm not going to give up other sports, and figure that I could just as easily had an accident walking the dog. Did you have an IM Nail too? For those fortunate enough not to know about this- its where you have a metal rod inserted inside the hollow bone to act as a brace. Don't worry- I won't go into any more graphic details!! |
Good on you, only one way to find out what your like skiing again isn't there!
I was "lucky" I just had a 12" metal bar and 18 screws (which they removed 9 months later), with some extra bone from my pelvis!!
With regard to the differences between bindings, one difference is the range, ie one binding may have DIN 6-10 as the range, another more expensive one may have DIN 8-12, you should get a binding where your setting isn't at it's max range.
Pam, you wrote "To suggest that there is a "right" DIN setting which can be determined largely with reference to the skiers weight, seems very dubious"
A decent ski tech should take into account weight, height, sole boot length, skier style (aggressive, timid etc) *AND* experience to determine the "right" DIN setting. You can see an example chart which shows this here - http://ski.terrymorse.com/din.html
regards,
Greg
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