 Poster: A snowHead
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We normally ski in North America. One of my favourite things about resorts across the pond is that almost all of them offer extensive, patrolled, challenging bowl skiing (ie choose your own route down the mountain providing you stay within bounds) and glade skiing (ie pick your own route through the trees, not a pretty piste running through a forest).
We're planning to do a European trip at Easter (last week of March) in addition to our normal North American holiday. Where can I find bowls and glades in Europe without going off piste, in a resort that's snow-sure at Easter and within driving distance of the UK?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Where can I find bowls and glades in Europe without going off piste, in a resort that's snow-sure at Easter and within driving distance of the UK? |
Surely all bowls and glades are off-piste - otherwise they would be pisted runs?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Where can I find bowls and glades in Europe without going off piste, in a resort that's snow-sure at Easter and within driving distance of the UK? |
Surely all bowls and glades are off-piste - otherwise they would be pisted runs? |
As Jonny Jones says, in North America inbounds off-piste is avi-controlled and patrolled. You just ski trails (pistes) to get on and off lifts, and then go wherever your fancy takes you 
In Lech/Zurs a couple of years ago, I ventured off-piste a fair bit, basically following the traverse lines of the locals and found some really nice open bowls. They certainly weren't patrolled/bombed, but weren't too steep and snow was well consolidated. So a short traverse opened up lots of fun terrain that wasn't heavily tracked as most people ther stayed on grommed. Did a little of same in St anton, but everywhere was tracked out apart from some nice stuff on skiers left in Rendl area. Sure a guide would've revealed much more tho.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Where can I find bowls and glades in Europe without going off piste, in a resort that's snow-sure at Easter and within driving distance of the UK? |
Surely all bowls and glades are off-piste - otherwise they would be pisted runs? |
Not in North America - hence the question. Over there, resorts identify areas of the mountain as suitable for skiing, as opposed to routes down the mountain. That's why the size of NA resorts is measured in acres whereas European resorts are measured in kilometers. The whole ski area is patrolled and on-piste in the sense that it's avalanche controlled, it's checked at the end of the day to make sure there's no-one left on the mountain, serious hazards such as cliffs are generally marked (unless you're on a double black run) and you're regarded as in bounds if you injure yourself and need rescuing. As a result, you don't need a guide to explore, and that's the experience I'm after.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonny,
There is nowhere (that I know of) in Europe that does t the same way as NA ie "in bounds skiing"
A few resorts are now starting to have "free ride" areas where they won't piste but will still make sure that area is safe.
Basically though in Europe if you are 1mm outside a run pole, you are off piste and on your own as regards to safety....there have been fatalities within metres of a piste pole in Europe unfortunately.
You don't "need" a guide to ski off piste in Europe, but you do need some experience and knowledge as to what slopes are safe, and you and your party should also each carry a transcevier, shovel and probe.
regards,
Greg
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| kitenski wrote: |
Jonny,
Basically though in Europe if you are 1mm outside a run pole, you are off piste and on your own as regards to safety....there have been fatalities within metres of a piste pole in Europe unfortunately.
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That's my problem, especially as I have three children. A few years ago I arrived in Tignes while a major body-recovery exercise was underway. An avalanche had swept two snowboarders into the lake and they had no chance of survival, even though they were probably no more than 100 yards from a green slope. The locals all knew that the place they were boarding was an area of high avalanche risk, but the boarders weren't local.
There's no way that I'm willing to take my children into places that I'm not certain are safe - my mountaincraft isn't good enough to make these judgements for myself and I'm not willing to follow the ski tracks of someone else whose judgement is probably no more qualified than mine. It's might be worth the risk for me, but not for my family.
If I can't get what I want in Europe by sticking to the rules, I'll just make the most of the alternative experience that the resort has to offer. How long until someone suggests La Rosiere?
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Not long.
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| kitenski wrote: |
Jonny,
A few resorts are now starting to have "free ride" areas where they won't piste but will still make sure that area is safe.
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This sounds like what is offered in North America - what resorts are these?
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| gortonator wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
Jonny,
A few resorts are now starting to have "free ride" areas where they won't piste but will still make sure that area is safe.
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This sounds like what is offered in North America - what resorts are these? |
Nope, NA has huge areas, like the Vail back bowls, whereas Laax is one place I was thinking of, the areas are more like runs as opposed to areas.
They are in yellow on this map in Laax Flims:
http://www.laax.com/flash/en.html#/de/ski_area/ski_area_slope_map
Tignes also has "Le Spot". Based near the top of the 25 min ascent Col de Vers (two or three person ancient chairlift), Le Spot was supposed to be a backcountry freeride area with sections for steep descents, building booters etc.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 14-10-07 19:50; edited 1 time in total
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| gortonator wrote: |
| As Jonny Jones says, in North America inbounds off-piste is avi-controlled and patrolled. |
How do they secure an entire in-bounds area from avalanches?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| gortonator wrote: |
| As Jonny Jones says, in North America inbounds off-piste is avi-controlled and patrolled. |
How do they secure an entire in-bounds area from avalanches? |
explosives .... for example at Crystal mountain in WA they drop 'em from a helicopter!
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 15-10-07 1:47; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| gortonator wrote: |
| As Jonny Jones says, in North America inbounds off-piste is avi-controlled and patrolled. |
How do they secure an entire in-bounds area from avalanches? |
The same way they do it over here! Bombs, ex army big guns, patrollers etc
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| gortonator wrote: |
| As Jonny Jones says, in North America inbounds off-piste is avi-controlled and patrolled. |
How do they secure an entire in-bounds area from avalanches? |
Dunno, but they do. I guess they're helped by the relatively low vertical drop and restricted size of most North American resorts, but it's probably just a mindset - that's what the punters expect so they do it. You do sometimes get in-bounds off-bounds areas, but they're clearly fenced off with suitably scary warning notices.
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You know it makes sense.
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Does that mean that there is lads of avalanche debris all over the place? Do you spend a lot of time fighting your way trough this stuff? The fe occasions I've skied across avalanche debris it was a less than enjoyable experience.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| kitenski wrote: |
| The same way they do it over here! Bombs, ex army big guns, patrollers etc |
Just a data point, in France at least, legally they can only avalanche control areas that threaten roads, buildings and ski runs. Now everyone can probably tell me about exceptions but they are in a legal void.
The use of avalanche control is itself controlled - having 105mm howitzers blasting away wouldn't go down too well with the locals. Even with those restrictions it is like the Gaza strip sometimes. were I live we can hear avalanche blasting from 6am in the season with windows and crockery rattling. You wouldn't want to be a marmotte or chamois.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Does that mean that there is lads of avalanche debris all over the place? Do you spend a lot of time fighting your way trough this stuff? The fe occasions I've skied across avalanche debris it was a less than enjoyable experience. |
Not in my experience, to be honest I think they are *very* pro-active, so push corniches etc down early and often..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jonny Jones,
There are some places in Europe that have Free ride areas which are meant to be Avelanche controlled I think. I've never come across gladed areas in Europe like in North America though you can certainly get areas through the trees.
From memory Flims has some free ride areas as does Zinal in Switzerland I cannot remember to many others though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There's a free ride area in Tignes.
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Jonny Jones, Austria have runs called "ski route". These are marked runs ( with the odd pole) and you should stay within 15mtrs of the markers ( lateral distance). The runs are not patrolled and Alpine dangers may exist (rocks etc), however they are controlled for avalanches. In Switzerland (verbier is an example) you will find the same runs called itineries. Basicaly they are not ski runs, they are ski routes. That is skiable terrain that is more of a challange than a controled piste.
In austria they are marked with a red line (on the piste map) and red diamonds. Red diamonds with a black outline are more "extreme". In Switzerland a black and yellow line, black and pink are high mountain ski routes rather like the austrian black and red diamond.
Hope this helps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Does that mean that there is lads of avalanche debris all over the place? Do you spend a lot of time fighting your way trough this stuff? The fe occasions I've skied across avalanche debris it was a less than enjoyable experience. |
Daily control particularly after storms of all known release points mean major slides not ususally issue - I have seen wet slides on a polished slip plane the height of freight trains though, again patrol triggered. There is usually an investigation if anyone is caught in an inbounds slide wich are rare. Also means there is a very powerful reason not to cross closure lines on powder days not only are you endangering yourself but also potentially patrol working below you. Does mean you can get crazy chinese downhills when the rope is dropped on new bowls 
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Jonny Jones, Not all US resorts operate that way...
IMLE (in my limited experience) I don't know of any European resorts that thin trees the way the North Americans do to create "Glades". Although arguably the snow park from Avoriaz (Portes du Soleil, France) down into Les Lindarets following the old poma tracks might fit that category.
You should be aware that I think this is changing. Beyond the "itineraires" that French resorts have been maintaining for years (unpisted, uncontroled, but patrolled-if-open slopes) several areas are starting to open up unpisted areas that they will still patrol - much like you would find in Utah, say.
But given that Europe (well the bits I know anyway) are still very polarised into on and off piste, and guides aren't that expensive, why not just hire a guide to take you off piste for a day or two?
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Have you tried La Rosiere?
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Jonny Jones, back corries at Nevis Range? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| II wrote: |
| Jonny Jones, back corries at Nevis Range? |
That's a great call, assuming they open the lift!!!!
TBH The "freedom" you can get from skiing anywhere in bounds in the US is awesome and as soon as both my kids can ski well enough I'll be back there!
I've skied around colorado, Vail etc, Jackson Hole and a weekend in Utah, and it really is worth trying if you like to ski the ungroomed!
Regards,
Greg
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I feel your pain, Jonny Jones. Having grown up in the US, I love skiing ungroomed slopes but have no 'backcountry' training or experience. In NA resorts, this is not a problem.
Here in Europe, I keep hearing all these horror stories, and then people who dismiss them, and honestly I have no idea what to believe anymore.
From my limited experience with European skiing so far, I found good, safe ungroomed snow in Engelberg, CH. Yes, there are the big off-piste descents requiring a guide. But at least the weekend I was there, they also had a lot of runs that had not been groomed after the big storm that hit as I was arriving. Powder for us early birds, nice tasty moguls in after about 10:30 am.
Mittenwald, DE has an area called the Dammkar. It's a single cable car accessing a single ungroomed but avi protected descent of about 3500 ft. Lack of snow meant it didn't open at all last year, so I was unable to ski it when I was there, so I cannot comment on its quality. Looks pretty good, though. I hear there is a similar but steeper run not far away in Oberammergau, DE, as well. Hopefully this winter.
Anyway, your not going to find glades. Otherwise, stick to the 'itineraries' and 'ski routes' mentioned above. Especially if you are concerned for the safety of your children.
And for some of us, hiring a guide is that expensive, especially when it's added on top of the cost of your lift ticket. It's also hard to fork out money for something that you would be getting for free on the other side of the pond.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Guide cost vs. trans-atlantic ticket. Simple math?
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| abc wrote: |
| Guide cost vs. trans-atlantic ticket. Simple math? |
But Jonny Jones is flying from the US, not the other way around. So it's not 'Guide cost vs. trans-atlantic ticket', it's 'Guide cost PLUS trans-atlantic ticket'
There are a lot of great things about skiing in Europe. But this is not one of them.
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You know it makes sense.
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ami in berlin, I'm actually from Wales so I have to buy transatlantic tickets to ski in North America. The cost of a guide is a big thing if you want to ski off piste for more than one day. There's also something a bit tedious about skiing with a stranger, no matter how pleasant they are - it's great for a while but once I know which way I'm going I want to be left alone to enjoy the company of my wife and kids.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ami in berlin wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| Guide cost vs. trans-atlantic ticket. Simple math? |
But Jonny Jones is flying from the US, not the other way around. So it's not 'Guide cost vs. trans-atlantic ticket', it's 'Guide cost PLUS trans-atlantic ticket'
There are a lot of great things about skiing in Europe. But this is not one of them. |
I'd be flying from USA, not Jonny Jones, so guide cost is pretty significant especially on a two week trip. When you're used to skiing completely off-trail in North America (apart from getting on/off lifts), the thought of being confined to groomers ain't great. Hence 'itineraries' in Austria were good fun.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The Freeide zones in europe are the places that get hit pretty damn quick anyway... so unless your timing is great, don't rely on these being untracked.
If you want to compare say, Horseshoe bowl in Breckenridge with a alpine type equivalent, I'd say it equates to Tortin which is a piste IIRCC.
You might be able to join ski school off-piste jaunts which may be published at the local ski school but if you want an off-piste trip, get an off-piste guide if you don't want to do it yourself.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haven;t time to read all of the abocve, but I should point out that the spanish pyrenean resort Baqueira Beret operates a north-american style "inbounds" poilcy, as it's advised by INtrawest (who own whistler amongst other resorts). not much treeskiing I think but you can ski anywhere within the ski area. Also, cheap heliskiing I think. Ski Miquel are the only british tour op to go there, they can do flights from manchester but beware will only offer a limited amount of seats so you can;t get too big a group. - http://miquelhols.co.uk
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sorry for my ignorance, but I'd never even heard of the existence of Baqueira before. I need to look into it a bit more closely, but after 10 minutes of googling it looks as if it might have some potential.
Do the French itineraires and Austrian Ski Routes count as off piste? In particular, if one of the kids - or, more likely, I - took a tumble, would my insurance be invalidated for skiing off piste without a guide?
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Does anyone know *why* more places in Europe don't do gladed runs? I really like them, and aren't they better environmentally speaking? Or would they also be affected by the regulations that davidof mentioned?
I'm sure there are pockets like this in quite a few places. Parts of Chamonix are similar - e.g. the 'Magic Forest' bit of Les Grands Montets, and the woods at the back of Vallorcine, and also the snowpark area at Avoriaz as David Murdoch says, which is probably the closest that I've seen.
But gladed runs in general aren't common at all, for no good reason that I can see.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 15-10-07 13:00; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Europe is far superior to North America when it comes to lift accessed off piste terrain. And this is partially due to the open access policy - where people are forced to take responsibility for their own actions and safety.
For *real* back country skiing this is by far the best approach !! But sometimes it seems people forget that we ski on mountains, not in theme parks...
No where in North America are there lifts such as those found in La Grave, Chamonix, Verbier, Val D'Isere etc. The huge vertical descents and easy access to high mountain terrain is simply unparalleled. However it comes with the proviso that you look out for yourself - or alternatively take a mountain guide.
Doug.
p.s Europe has off piste, North America has "out of bounds" 
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> Where can I find bowls and glades in Europe without going off piste,
Sounds like Verbier is your best bet. Some good high mountain marked itenaries such as Vallon D'Arby, Tortin, L'Eytergeon etc. Check out the yellow and black lines on their piste map. These routes are unpisted but avy controlled by the pisteurs.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| But sometimes it seems people forget that we ski on mountains, not in theme parks... |
I'm sure that you didn't mean it that way, but your comment does sound rather insulting about, presumably, North American ski areas and those who ski there.
It's about risk appetite and knowledge of the mountain. I want to ski on runs that are challenging enough for me to need to be careful, but which aren't full of dangers that I as a non-local urbanite have no reasonable possibility of predicting. I'm capable of avoiding rocks and trees, but I don't want to inadvertently trigger an avalanche. I like to find my own way down a mountain, but I want to be warned if a mistake could mean that I have to scale a cliff. I love skiing in peace, solitude and fresh snow, but I like to think that someone will discover me before dark if I fall and break a leg. I'm not sure that wanting those things makes a ski resort a theme park. To me, it's a pretty enjoyable halfway house between endless groomers and the expense and risk of true off piste. And it's where my family is at in terms of skiing ability. I'm sorry that we're not more capable, but that's the way it is.
I'm pretty surprised that it's so hard to get the kind of experience that I'm looking for in Europe, but it's not going to spoil my holiday. It sounds like I need to check out some of the itenaries that people have mentioned and adjust my mindset and expectations. There's no such thing as a bad day on skis 
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The theme park comment wasn't aimed at North America at all.
There are plenty euros and brit's who can be overhead moaning about the vagaries of the mountain environment...(icy slopes, high winds, poor visibility, bad weather, avalanches etc etc).
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 15-10-07 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, fair enough - I misunderstood you.
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FAQ
If the going rate for a guide is only £150 per day then a couple of days soon equates to a lift pass for a couple of weeks stateside.