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Saalbach and Zell am See connection

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I'm beginning to think that I'll be lucky if I'm still able to ski before any of this happens? rolling eyes
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robboj,

It seems to be clouded in mystery. I doubt whether the 'good' folks from the US NSA can find out what's happening!

I am assuming the Zell link will never happen.
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robboj wrote:
I'm beginning to think that I'll be lucky if I'm still able to ski before any of this happens? rolling eyes

That's my worry too Laughing But I think all three new links to the Glemmtal - Zell, Fieberbrunn and Leogang - may well be there by 2020 (and maybe the Viehhofen-Asitz lift too). Reports say the Fieberbrunn-Hinterglemm lift should be there by 2017. I guess that, along with official approval, it largely depends on the finance, for I imagine each project will cost of the order of 10-20 million Euros (and there may be other demands on cash too, e.g. replacing the Bernkogel T-bars or Polten lift). We shall see!
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Here's hoping espri, The Zell one will depend on what Schmittenhohe need to spend elsewhere as I would have though that replacing the Glocknerbahn was not a greater priority than upgrading the Areitbahn or even the Hirschkogelbahn and then ultimately on how much money the Porsches' need to lose against tax? Shocked
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Quote:

It seems to be clouded in mystery. I doubt whether the 'good' folks from the US NSA can find out what's happening!


Checking in from the U.S.: The link will happen by 2018. Have a nice day.
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farlep99,

Mmmm - must have bugged some mobile phones in the lift company, or maybe Merkel mentioned it!

See ya oll.
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robboj,

Given that the project to Piesendorf never materialised and that ski pass prices have risen steadily, I think the lift company probably is gathering quite a stash of cash.

I agree that the priorities of their spending looks strange at the moment as you said there are more important priorities than the Glocknerbahn (which looked ok to me last year). I just wonder where they see the best returns for future investments.
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They splashed a lot of cash on upgrading the lift system a few years ago, when Saalbach-Hinterglemm won its award from 'Where to Ski and Snowboard' for 'Best European Development' and won plaudits for having the fastest lift system of any major resort in the world, but since then the annual improvements have been much more modest, and this year the only new/upgraded lift is the relatively short Rosswald Lift. I wonder whether we can look forward to another 'explosion' of lift improvements, including the long-wished-for Bernkogel 2 lift, next year?
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zellmaniac, Yeah that one struck me as odd, I was on it a lot last year as I had a beginner with me and there were always queues at it but they moved very quickly, certainly there were no physical sign of problems and no stoppages apart from the dismount 'incidents' which one expects on a lift serving the main learner slope?

On the other hand the Areitbahn caused lots of problems last year and the Hirschkogel was its usual jam in the mornings although I suppose its only really at that time its a problem. On further thought the Arietbahn needs major work to make it more effective, primarily by taking away the change at Areitbahn 1 and also needs bigger gondolas which would be a major expense on which they may be undecided until the Piesendorf issue is finally resolved one way or the other? If it doesn't happen then they probably have to replace the whole Areitbahn from top to bottom and with the eight seater cabins, whereas if it does then they will maybe just replace the drive machinery and gondolas to make it mechanically reliable and slightly faster?
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One of the directors of the Zell am See lift company gave me a ride the other day and we chatted about the likelihood of any new links into Zell am See. He pretty much confirmed Espri's comments above that they will be pushing hard to link Zell am See with Saalbach-Hinterglemm and Fieberbrunn. Their objective is to attract skiers into the area who drive down from Munich. In the past the Porsche family, which owns the Zell am See side, has not been able to reach agreement with the 12 landowners on the Saalbach side but a new generation has taken over and there is now agreement to move forward, and the money has been earmarked - target for opening 2016. However, there are is a considerable amount of planning and environmental work required and just because the lift company wants it doesn't mean that it will happen. The prize is a ski area of 520km in extent if you include Kaprun, more if you allow that from Fieberbrunn you can bus over to Kitzbuhel.
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Brownbear101,

Thanks for the info. So it seems there is a case for limited optimism about it happening given the obstacles that are still to be overcome.

Really hope it happens!!
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I suppose we ought to be careful what we wish for! Puzzled
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Tatman's Tours wrote:
I suppose we ought to be careful what we wish for! Puzzled


Actually very true! My (admittedly fairly random) thoughts are -

1 Who on earth is going to cover 500+ kms in an average ski holiday?

2 Being objective there are huge benefits for ZamS and Fieberbrunn but I can't see what S/H has to gain unless they are actually being paid to let the others in? If they want more guests they can surely just keep building along the valley? Yes I know that might spoil things visually but presumably this is being done to make more money and I would think that a dozen new hotels might be lesser feats of engineering and costs than all these new runs and lifts?

3 Skiing at ZamS is limited for the number of beds in the town so they need expansion and there only other physical option has been rejected. So, they may have to pay to join the Glemmtal club but thanks to just about the richest benefactors in the Austrian Alps they have no shortage of potential moolah with which to do??

4 Not sure of skiing at Fieberbrunn as I've never skied there just passed it on the train, it looks smallish but maybe better scaled in terms of beds to skiing kms that ZamS, nonetheless bound to attract many more guests to a resort that is probably a damn sight cheaper to stay in than ZamS?

5 The skiing down the back of the Schmittehohe and over to join the Schattberg is going to be steep and icy, probably black runs which will limit the numbers that can do it. Therefore will it have to be one of those mega cable cars acting purely as transport? If so then they could probably run a fleet of buses in perpetuity for a fraction of the cost?

6 On reflection ZamS please just spend the cash as follows - replacing the Areitbahn because its knackered and not fit for purpose, the Hirschkogelbahn because it can't cope in the mornings, the Kapellenbahn because sitting on it is like being an extra in 'Scott of the Antarctic' on a snowy & windy day, all the remaining T-bars because we are now well into the second decade of the 21st century and building decent learner areas so that beginners expend all their energy learning to ski safely and not sidestepping back up because you'll have built little chairlifts that also allow the beginners to master that art before they go up the mountain. Also please majorly redesign the Black 15 Sudabfahrt like you did with Black 10 Nordabfahrt so that early intermediates etc. can ski safely to the valley from either side of the mountain?

Thoughts anyone?
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1. Not many people, but that's not the point. It's the sense of travel/distance. Three valleys in France for example.

2. Agree not a lot in for SH. Maybe economies of scale and joint marketing.

3. IIRC read on here somewhere that some years ago an marked route was shown on the piste map down from the Sonnkogel to the Glemmtal so maybe options there.

4.Skied Fieberbrunn in January and it looks to have a similar problem to Zell in terms of beds and piste mileage. The ski area is a bus ride from town, so not as convenient a base to ski the area.

5. The route to Schattberg maybe all black but you can bet they wouldn't grade it all black on the map. Or, Kitz's 3S mega bahn is great marketing tool and selling point. Same here perhaps.

6. Agree. The Areitbahn needs attention first. But Zell does need to expand it's ski area somehow. Maybe extend/replace the Hahnkopflift or the top half of the Piesendorf expansion.
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HutToHut wrote:


1. Not many people, but that's not the point. It's the sense of travel/distance. Three valleys in France for example.

2. Agree not a lot in for SH. Maybe economies of scale and joint marketing.

3. IIRC read on here somewhere that some years ago an marked route was shown on the piste map down from the Sonnkogel to the Glemmtal so maybe options there.

4.Skied Fieberbrunn in January and it looks to have a similar problem to Zell in terms of beds and piste mileage. The ski area is a bus ride from town, so not as convenient a base to ski the area.

5. The route to Schattberg maybe all black but you can bet they wouldn't grade it all black on the map. Or, Kitz's 3S mega bahn is great marketing tool and selling point. Same here perhaps.

6. Agree. The Areitbahn needs attention first. But Zell does need to expand it's ski area somehow. Maybe extend/replace the Hahnkopflift or the top half of the Piesendorf expansion.


1. I suppose so, it must have some proven marketing benefit?

3. I remember that too but looking on Google maps I can't see any trace of anything even remotely like a route, never mind a run? if there was it would likely come down east of Vorderglemm which would be pointless anyway unless S/H put a lift up from Viehoefen to the Asitz?

5. You're probably right about the 'grading'. Alas a major cable car 'bus' is just another triumph of marketing over common sense? rolling eyes

6. Who knows?
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Quote:

Alas a major cable car 'bus' is just another triumph of marketing over common sense?

Now don't get me going about HS2! Evil or Very Mad
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Tatman's Tours, isn't HS2 'just' part of a grandiose euro scheme for a great network of high speed 18th century technology based transport system. What Cameron gets for supporting it I've no idea. Crackpot waste of money we havn't got that'll be obsolete by the time it's ten times over budget and finished.

Getting back on topic. Say the obstacles are overcome and by 2020 Zell am See, Saalbach Hinterglemm and Fieberbrunn are all linked I would go back to Zell, wouldn't stay in Fieberbrunn but would ski it and it'd be another reason to go back to Saalbach. Similar to why we went to Westendorf one year when the Choralmbahn and KiWest were built.
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To be fair if Zell am See was linked to the ski circus I would probably stay In zell and not Saalbach Hinterglemm. It's a nicer town.
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Hi All
I have just bought a place in Zell so I am interested in any development that would increase/improve the skiing available in the area. As with any major development there will be positive and negatives and one mans positive will often be another's negative so I guess we will have to wait and see what occurs.

I have an old piste map that shows a trail marked down the backside of Schmittenhohe, I would post it if I could work out how too.
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mbeaney, Welcome to snowHead's. There's a guide on here somewhere for posting pics.

Interesting though, where does it start from and end up and what general direction does it take? The only possibles I can see are from the bottom of the Kettinglift down what is not much more than a path or down the back of the Hahnkopflift which could be a run but then a path? As far as I can see either would have the same problem of bringing people out well east of the first lifts in the Glemmtal and thus still needing a bus?

Good to hear about your purchase, where have you bought?
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Photo above form German forum, I read there somewhere plan is to build 2 new gondolas from Viehoefen.
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What ever route is taken to link ZAS with SH will come up against the environmentalist lobby. That could be the link's biggest threat.

Improving the Areitbahn is desperately needed - however increasing the capacity of a lift sytem results in more traffic and congestion. This will in turn increase the need to expand the area. So I wonder if the upgrade of Areit will happen when the expansion of the skiing area is resolved.

Extending the Hahnkopflift - how much skiing area would that open up? Any development there would likely be stopped by environmental concerns. And the 'go west' ski run is at times dangerously busy - this will only get busier if it is a route to a new expanded area.

So I think the SH link is the only option for ZAS. A good negotiating position for SH!
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The map that Tom W posted is the same one that I have, I have also heard that the plan is for some form of new uplift from Viehoefen.

I have bought near place near Ebenbergbahn, just got back on Sunday after pretty hectic week sorting out paperwork (did however get 1 day skiing on Kitzsteinhorn).

I have many questions about Zell and will post here to hopefully tap into the knowledge of the locals/regular visitors to Zell on here.
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Tom W, thanks for that. That is of some vintage, I don't think they've landed planes on the ice since the late 60's after the Porsche accident? Also the whole area is much less developed?

Interesting to see the runs on the Atzingberg down to Maishofen, strange why they have disappeared as that part would hold snow well? Yes the Glemmtal run would appear to be off the Sonnkogel, although its not entirely clear? Still seems to end up in the middle of no where though which is presumably why it is no more? If that drawing is remotely accurate that whole side of the mountain was also much less forested then too?

Also seems to show a third route down from around Mittelstation between the Nord and the Standard? The Sonnkogel cable car also seems to start from further down the valley? Could be artistic licence or could be that its been moved? One more thing is that the Pinzgauer Hutte was always there which confirms that the current building is a replacement, therefore it looks like the whole Piesendorf extension has been in the plans for a long time as it did seem odd to me why spend so much money on a new hutte with accommodation in that location, sadly their speculation may fail to pay off?

Some of the changes could be to do with the landslide in 1966? Maybe any un-linked or unnecessary runs were taken away to plant more trees and stabilise the soil?

Anyway back on topic the (admittedly limited) consensus thus far suggests its all gain for ZamS as more people will stay there, not a lot either way for S\H apart from getting the link at ZamS's expense if they play hardball and maybe more skiers for Fieberbrunn and an opportunity to market itself as the location for value for money accommodation of the whole mega area?


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 6-11-13 12:14; edited 1 time in total
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mbeaney, Excellent, good location. Use the search function there's quite a few threads. Otherwise theres a few folk on here who have been going to Zell for years and will answer any questions you have? Smile
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Quote:

Also seems to show a third route down from around Mittelstation between the Nord and the Standard?


There's definitely a hiking trail in there. I try to skin up that route at least once on my yearly trip out there. It'd be a little hairy going down hill though!
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I thought Tatman's Tours raised some interesting points about the proposed "Zellbachbrunn" (or should it be Zellterbrunn?) Superski area. I do think it will dramatically change Zell if it happens. Taking his points in order:

1 Who is going to cover 500+ kms in an average ski holiday? All the European ski resorts are under pressure to expand their ski area - it's a case of get bigger or stay home. For example Zell no longer has a main entry in the 'Where to Ski' guide. New ski technology makes it possible and fun to ski from village to village and the fact that at the end of the holiday some runs and routes are still unexplored perhaps makes it more likely that visitors will return. I'm afraid that all this expansion is not really aimed at us Brits, its all about getting the Germans to ski in the area. Schneewinkel, which includes Fieberbrunn, crosses the border into Germany and is an easy car ride down from Munich - where the money is.

2 I can't see what S/H has to gain - I think that's been the feeling amongst the landowners in S-H as well but they can see what is happening in the region with Ski Welt and the expansion of Kitzbuhel. It's a competitive world and they have to up their game too.

3 Skiing at ZamS is limited for the number of beds in the town - Right, and you see a number of the hotels being converted to Apartments. The Hotel Eder will be demolished next year. Hotels bring more money into a town than apartments and the expansion is an attempt to rebalance the town's economy. I'm not sure how the costs of the new lifts and the revenues are divided up but new electronic lift pass technology can apportion revenues to where people are skiing. Thats why the All Star Pass, which covers ten resorts including Zell, S-H and Kitz hardly costs any more than a Zell-Kaprun pass.

4 Not sure of skiing at Fieberbrunn as I've never skied there just passed it on the train, it looks smallish - Fieberbrunn markets itself as a freeride paradise, its bigger than the 40km of piste would suggest. Give the off piste a try.

5 The skiing down the back of the Schmittehohe and over to join the Schattberg is going to be steep and icy, probably black runs which will limit the numbers that can do it. Therefore will it have to be one of those mega cable cars acting purely as transport? If so then they could probably run a fleet of buses in perpetuity for a fraction of the cost? - I wasn't told the proposed route but they will likely have runs that can be skied by all levels even if that means the easy run is really just a path. You are right that buses would be cheaper but skiers want lift connections.

6 On reflection ZamS please just spend the cash as follows - (I've removed your wish list for the sake of brevity but it's in the thread). Some or all of these things may happen in consequence of the expansion of the area. It takes 15 years to get your money back on a lift investment so no lift younger that that is going to be replaced. You may have complaints about the lifts at Zell but they are the hight of modernity and sophistication compared to some Swiss resorts like the (Swiss side of) The Portes du Soleil.
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Modesty dictates that I should point out that it was robboj, rather than I, who raised the list of interesting points!
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Why does zell am see not have more ski runs? They could have lifts down the over sides of the mountains and link up with the smaller Kaprun area.
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madlondoner, some new lifts and pistes over one side down to Piesendorf (across the valley from Kaprun) have been planned, but have come to nothing due to, I think, land owner disagreements.
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madlondoner, Why indeed? They tried, or are trying to extend down to Piesendorf but that is mired in disagreement. Even if they succeed they will need to find some way across the Pinzgau valley to link onto the Maiskogel. It will either have to be a cable car, a railway or the longest magic carpet in the alps?? Puzzled
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Brownbear101, Some interesting answers there, thanks for your input.
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The planned lifts to Piesendorf were stopped because of ecological factors (and there were also arguments about the suitability of the proposed piste - too narrow for safety in places). There doesn't seem to be any prospect of developments in that direction now.
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Thanks espri, wasn't just sure how 'dead' that project was/is?
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Looks like there is some further talk on German forum about the Zell to Saalbach link. Apparently no "EIA" environmental impact is necessary.
But what do I know if I Google translate all Wink
Maybe some German speakers can read it all properly.

clicky link

"The planned runway begins at Salersbachköpfl (1,934 m) and drags himself "S-shape" in the existing corridor of a former variant departure. The piste runs as- by essentially the terrain edge and the crest following the north. In an altitude of about 1,380 m branches off the north facing slopes in the broad back in Azimuth from station, which is located on 1,110 meters above sea level. The slope is approximately 3.3 km long and is equipped with a snowmaking system, with the water from the be- standing Schneianlage is supplied. A 180 m long section of the upper part the runway is equipped with avalanche control. As a supplement branches on a Altitude of 1,380 m, a 1.3 km long ski route towards Kasparalm from. The ski- trail is not groomed and snowed and has a mark in the center of the Departure on. As a climbing aid is a 10-seater ESA system, which from the valley into the community Viehofen an angle station on the Salersbachköpfl (1,920 m). Are on track for Division I and seven columns for the Division II 18 new Roadway structures erected. The gauge should be 6.10 m. The base station is no- tion have guest parking, but integrated into the existing ski bus. The proposed transaction is with deforestation in the extent of about 13.26 ha (approx 1.23 fixed- tion, approximately 12.04 unlimited) connected. In addition to these clearings fall on non- Woodlands still around about 1.71 hectares of land at reshapin..."


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 12-11-13 9:34; edited 2 times in total
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And the actual forum link:
http://www.alpinforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1404&start=750
..Google translated:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpinforum.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D12%26t%3D1404%26start%3D750
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EIA could have been a big stumbling block. If EIA is not necessary and there is the funding in place what are the other roadblocks which could delay this? Is the previously mentioned 2016 a realistic target date?
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I'm not sure about the EIA not being necessary unless they had already obtained provisional approval before the legislation came into force. A lot of resorts rushed plans through in the months before the Environmental protection laws came into force, even if they did not even know if they would actually be able to fulfil them.

The other delay is that because all the land is privately owned and you need the agreement of ALL the land owners before you can go ahead. I know of several plans that were blocked for a long time by obstinate landowners who were either against the project or holding out for a bigger cut! Even the forest areas are divvied up into parcels and privately run by locals. There are some State-owned areas but not all of the mountain forests or the mountains belong to the state or province.
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I've just returned from Zell where I was told that the environmental lawyers will not object to the proposed link between Zell am See and Vorderglemm (and hence into the Ski Circus as per the German forum note posted above). This is because the ski route will use an existing historic ski path/trail which will be widened (to 6.3 meters if I understand correctly). So essentially its going to be a long winding path into Vorderglemm, with snowmaking, with a fast chair back up. Since the landowners have already signed an agreement to build the lifts there's now a very good chance of this link happening for the 2016 season.
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