 Poster: A snowHead
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I am a student at Northumbria University studying Industrial Design. In my final year I want to tackle the issues surrounding navigation and safety on the slopes. This will include a Sat Nav style Unit, possibly wrist mounted possibly on a neck strap. Also there are many features it would include, e.g. placing a small tracker beacon on kids to view there position on the screen. I would like to get the thoughts and opinions on this idea from all you snow enthusiasts to aid me in my research. If you would like to comment, please leave your age, family status, and the amount you would be willing to pay for the product, or whether you think it would be better as a rental product. I look forward to hearing your comments. Many thanks. [/b]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sounds like a good idea for people to rent - the first thing that sprang to mind though is how inaccurate piste maps can be and how much hills and runs change from year to year - it'd be a logistical nightmare keeping each resort's piste map up to date...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks for that link, it is interesting to look at existing technology, there are lots of problems with this example which I plan to improve...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| toogie71 wrote: |
| Thanks for that link, it is interesting to look at existing technology, there are lots of problems with this example which I plan to improve... |
yeah for one there are better places to stop than the tete de solaise!
Surprised TomTom haven't come out with a tomtom for skiers
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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sorry but how many clowns with sat navs, do you see cutting across lanes cos they have to turn at the last min,
turn left there, gone !
its bad enough on the roads, and thats where it should stay, imo 
and what dave c says
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Maybe rent something like this. But a big maybe. Not sure what value it would add. Perhaps with older children who ski alone but you somehow want to keep tabs on them. I know some people use VHF radio for the same reason.
I can't imaging skiing with some voice telling me to "take the next left past the third pine tree under the chair lift above you, opposite the snow cannon."
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The future of satnav is mobile, not portable.
Much better to design something around a smartphone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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toogie71, Don't handheld GPS units already cater for the needs of most people? How would tracker beacons work in the mountains?
I don't think navigation in ski resorts is a big issue unless you are off piste. Following the signs, with the aid of a piste map, has allowed me to get around every resort I have ever been to.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've carried a GPS while skiing for years, but I did take it one step further and created some maps of several resorts in France, which I can download into the GPS. So far I've done Val d'Isere, Tignes, La Rosiere/La Thuile, Les Arcs/Vallandry, most of the 3 Valleys and most of La Plagne. The main problem with trying to maintain digital piste maps is that many resorts change piste locations year on year, and lifts get replaced and upgraded so the maps don't stay accurate for long. And the only way to map pistes is to actually ski them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Jerry wrote: |
| GPS is very good at telling you where you are but contrary to popular opinion won't, on it's own, tell you where somewhere else is. |
Agree.
As user of handheld GPS, I can't help but laugh a little at some of the "popular opinions" expressed. Skiing isn't about getting somewhere. So the thought of the GPS "telling" you where to turn and such will not become the main use. As Jerry pointed out, it's best (and only) use is to tell you where you are, say, in a total whiteout.
In a clear day, I don't see ANY benefit of the device. Piste markers do a perfectly good job for that. Being a good map reader myself, I have no trouble figuring out how to get from where I am to where I wish to go. As for tracking where the kids are, I'm not sure how much use that would be either.
Theorectically, it can be useful as a safety device for skiing when visibiilty is poor. But in that case, I tend to repeat the same piste over and over again because it makes little different whereever else I go... it'd be the same white soup again! Its use for off-piste skier is also questionable. For that, you really need the general topographical map of the surrounding valleys so you don't end up in the wrong valley, rather than the detail piste WITHIN the resort.
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Whitegold, as direct and candid as usual! Correct, IMHO, however; the addition of GPS to Blackberries, etc., makes absolute sense. Just don'try using them as proxy for a Tom Tom in the car, you will probably crash! (bitter experience and never again!)
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You know it makes sense.
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| sproggski wrote: |
| Whitegold, as direct and candid as usual! Correct, IMHO, however; the addition of GPS to Blackberries, etc., makes absolute sense. Just don'try using them as proxy for a Tom Tom in the car, you will probably crash! (bitter experience and never again!) |
Sony are planning a GPS add in for the PSP.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've got TomTom built into my htc palm phone/emailweb enabled thingy & it's brill.
| toogie71 wrote: |
| ......Also there are many features it would include, e.g. placing a small tracker beacon on kids to view there position on the screen....... |
Could that same small tracker beacon be attached to skis to aid in deep snow location/retrieval?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Skiing isn't about getting somewhere.
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I think it can be and most often is.
I can see how GPS might aid navigation around a resort in the way that it is used in some tourist attractions - but I'm not certain how it could be integrated into the activity of skiing. I guess a bluetooh head set could relay instructions.
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it's best (and only) use is to tell you where you are, say, in a total whiteout.
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Like all technology there so much more potential in it than abc's limited view of it. Many companies (BT/Channle4/Nokia/Sony etc to name a few) are looking at innovative ways of using/adopting and adapting technology, particularly GPS to different uses.
I think toogie71 is trying to create a project with a vision for a new use of GPS.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
it's best (and only) use is to tell you where you are, say, in a total whiteout.
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I've had my GPS speedo tell me I've skiied at over 200mph, no doubt due to an error caused by a reflected signal. The last thing I want in white out is the same happening and the device telling me I'm 100 yards away from where I really am.
Looking at various people's traces on Google Earth and suchlike afterwards it's fairly easy to spot where a signal has jumped to a false location and then back again but would you want to risk it knowing that you won't be able to spot the error until afterwards?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I seem to recall a device in a mobile phone being previewed that enabled children to be tracked by their parents. It was previewed on the news in the last 6 months. May be operative infrance
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dan100 wrote: |
| I seem to recall a device in a mobile phone being previewed that enabled children to be tracked by their parents. It was previewed on the news in the last 6 months. May be operative infrance |
You can get it here as well, www.findyourchild.net. It's of no use if the phone is off or does not have a signal.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks Johnnyh I am pleased to see that someone realises what I am trying to acheive here. Having been skiing twice a year since the age of three I have some experience, and there is nothing worse than flying down the mountain to have to stop to check which route to take, a simple look at a navigational device and you can continue with out stopping, eliminating undoing your jacket, or zip pocket to get a map out.
There are many ideas I have, such as finding restaurants, being taken on a tour on arrival of an unfamiliar resort. I plan to use the new European Satellite system (Galileo) which is far more accurate. I think some people are being a little narrow minded, this will not simply be a tom tom style device which has some woman telling you go left here blah blah blah, Im exploring things such as heads up display in goggles, vibration direction through a belt and the effectiveness of simply an on screen visual.
How much would people be willing to pay to rent this sort of device?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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toogie71, I think you should ask, "will anyone want to rent one".
Personally I wouldn't, as I see little use for it, although some may like it for novelty value.
I also think you are missing some of the points others have raised, namely slopes change from year to year, some slopes can be closed at short notice, the weather may affect which runs are opened and closed on a daily basis, etc. When I was in Morzine this year many of the lower runs were closed due to insufficient snow - how would your system cope with that?
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Sage, Fair points ... but I think some of those may be turned around to the positive at this conceptual stage. If the Proposed System can be linked to realtime information from the Resort Manager, then all information regarding pistes, conditions, lifts, queues  can be relayed directly to the user - making them a very happy skier. The potential is vast - whether it would be commercially viable is of course another matter.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks BernardC, ,
Obviously I have to research what technology I am able to fit inside a unit that would strap round your forearm, but real time up dates of lift and run closure is something I would have to prioritize for it to work and have considered this, skimottaret, posted a website of an existing system which has some flaws which I want to improve on and add other features. The ability to edit your own route throughout the day, and specifying the altitude to avoid poor snow lower down, or even staying above a certain cloud level are things I am thinking about. Weather updates are also something I would like to include.
Sage, with the unit as a rental product the ski route would be updated for that years slopes, and as mentioned before would update regularly. This design is not a case of acheiving something you couldnt do before
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Following the signs, with the aid of a piste map, has allowed me to get around every resort I have ever been to.
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but making things more practical and hassle free. You are obviously not keen on the idea, but I can not see how it would not be useful to people to have a system that guided, help monitor where your kids are, guides you down the mountain, or to a lift in conditions where you can only see a couple of meters in front of you, helps you find restaurants (including reveiws from previous visitors), avoid certain runs (e.g reds and blacks for novices), aids recovery in emergency situations such as avalanches, avoid missing the last lift, and built in ski pass. so to follow your advice...
Is this a product worth renting???
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toogie71, Not withstanding the GPS side, if you are planning an information portal for each resort, that may be more appealing. i.e. If you knew each day which runs were open, weather and avalanche conditions, resort facilities and locations etc, etc.
I'm still not convinced about the piste guiding though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Now we're talking about peeps standing in the middle of the piste checking their GPS!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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toogie71, quite a few years ago I was involved in an EU project around GPS navigation systems around sites of historical interest. At the time GPS was very primative (no domestic units available etc.) the project was still worth investment and represented a piece of research which has been developed. As I have said in previous posts this kind of technology is being adopted by tourist attractions so there is no reason why you're idea wouldn't be viable. I'd ignore the comments like this
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Now we're talking about peeps standing in the middle of the piste checking their GPS!!!
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clearly some people have no idea about how to innovate and develop technology. It's not about what it does now and it's short comings today, it's about improvements and adapting it to work in new ways. You could consider a new business model whereby the units are given out at resorts along with lift passes. As for updating piste maps, resorts are managed and controlled centrally, (paper piste maps are printed and given away - so there must be someone managing this with the piste mapping data). All of this (and more) information is already available, you're just coming up with a new way to use it which I think is a really positive thing.
Weather reports sound great, tracking is useful (how many miles you've travelled etc). Real-time lift closure notification could be really useful, as could some method of presenting a new or alternative route. Phone numbers of mountain restaurants so you could book your table and give a realistic ETA to them would be a "nice to have".
Take what you can from here and leave behind the comments which clearly come from those who have never been involved in this kind of thing.
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clearly some people have no idea about how to innovate and develop technology.
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Having worked in Silican Valley in the mobile industry for a few years, I've seen plenty of "innovative technology" solution that is still looking for a problem! 
But, if you pass out the GPS with lift pass FOR FREE, people might even use it occasionally, if they can figure out how without stopping.
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You know it makes sense.
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Having worked in Silican Valley . . .
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If you work in a hosipital you ain't neccessarily a brain surgeon.
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I think, since the idea is part of student project, is sound. It may not happen for many reasons (commercial or otherwise). But toogie71's come for some market research and some perspective on his concept. I'm sure there will be some no takers but there will be some early adopters too. A few years back my lift pass was a grubby bit of paper, now it's a card with a chip in it which I keep in my pocket and don't even have to show to the lift man. Not all ideas are good ideas, for sure. But GPS is relatively new and who knows what applications will be developed from its use.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Could that same small tracker beacon be attached to skis to aid in deep snow location/retrieval? |
That's my point - the "small tracker thing" would have to be GPS + something else. GPS works by receiving - transmitting that received location is a different ball game. In theory GPS + phone would work a la car trackers, but still subject to phone signals etc.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| Having worked in Silican Valley |
... but not having managed to learn to spell it properly
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| toogie71 wrote: |
a simple look at a navigational device and you can continue with out stopping, eliminating undoing your jacket, or zip pocket to get a map out.
There are many ideas I have, such as finding restaurants, being taken on a tour on arrival of an unfamiliar resort. I plan to use the new European Satellite system (Galileo) which is far more accurate. ...this will not simply be a tom tom style device which has some woman telling you go left here blah blah blah, Im exploring things such as heads up display in goggles, vibration direction through a belt and the effectiveness of simply an on screen visual.
How much would people be willing to pay to rent this sort of device? |
Right. That has to be your tagline -- the death of the pistemap.
Paper maps will be mostly extinct in developed countries by 2020. You are thinking in the right direction.
But ditch the idea of a standalone, handheld, portable device. They suck. Everything will soon be mobile.
I will pay zero Pounds / Yen / Euros / Dollars to rent or buy a standalone GPS unit. They look sad. I have no desire to carry 2, or even 3, electronic devices while riding (phone + MP3 + GPS).
Much better to design a slightly-ruggedized A-GPS cellphone with a large display, voice-recognition for the user-interface, a large touchscreen and large software icons (for gloves). Think iPhone, not Garmin.
Regarding Galileo -- this project is atleast 5 years away from commercial launch. It is not proven that it will be more accurate. Costs will be higher than GPS. Better to stick with proven GPS, and use the Assisted-GPS version, which triangulates with cellphone towers and is accurate down to 5 meters (about the same as Galileo's claims).
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| I think some people are being a little narrow minded |
What, SnowHeads? Never! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Whitegold, yep , Blackberry 8310, Nokia N95, and a few others. My next mobile/pda/mp3 player/camera thingy will have gps as well.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I think, since the idea is part of student project, is sound. It may not happen for many reasons (commercial or otherwise). But toogie71's come for some market research and some perspective on his concept. I'm sure there will be some no takers but there will be some early adopters too.
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As a student project, anything that's technologically sound will be fine.
But he's not asking if it'll work. It will. GPS is an "old technolory" by now. He's asking will anyone pay for using it. The honest answer is I will not. Will others pay for it? Some will, some will not.
If he only wants to hear what he wish to hear, ask the mirror and listen to the echo.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think the OP hasn't really explained how his concept will get over the tech difficulties - if the transmission/reception technology is that easy to put in gadgets why hasn't it usurped avalanche transceivers?
To me without the safety app its a gimmick at best and at worst a waste of everyone's time - the toaster-alarmclock
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
As Jerry pointed out, it's best (and only) use is to tell you where you are, say, in a total whiteout
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I always thought that heavy snowfall adversly affected the ability to track satelites -
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| Odin wrote: |
I always thought that heavy snowfall adversly affected the ability to track satelites - |
GPS signals are significantly weakened by water, but snow doesn't affect them too much (which is odd given that snow is just crunchy water).
From using a GPS in all sorts of mountain conditions I would say that even heavy snow only causes a slight degradation of signal strength. But it doesn't take much liquid water to completely block it. My ski jacket is one of those where the outer skin gets completely saturated, particularly when it rains, and I lose any signal when its wet (the GPS is in an inside pocket). I would imagine that the OP's idea of wearing a receiver on the wrist would struggle to see any reception at all if the sleeves were wet. The antenna part of the device really needs to be on the outside to stay reliable
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Thanks everyone, this is really good stuff for me to design around and find solutions to, I welcome all your comments.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd say definately combine with a mobile phone/email device, that way you can even book tables at restaurants in advance (handy for when the resorts are busy), a localised weather forecast and avalanche warning update would also be good, also what about integrating feedback from the lifts so for example not only will it tell you that lifts are open or shut but also how long the wait will be at the bottom
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toogie71, The operators of the resorts may prove to be a major road block to your idea. For instance last season the new Paradiski map was not published until the end of November (IFIRC) due to the amount of new lifts pistes etc and also a change of design studio. In many resorts the piste maps appear to be deliberately inaccurate. The Paradiski map either has landmarks such as Restaurants missing or even in different locations! Montalbert for instance changes the routes of some pistes through the forest each season and even during the season.
To widen your products appeal the Alps are crying out for a decent summer walking map system. I have yet to come across a leisure walking map that is accurate
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FAQ
.... it would need to include lift closure times for the Trois Valees, Meribel in particular ......... 
