 Poster: A snowHead
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Wouldn't the answer to as broad a question as "why do you turn" be "lots of reasons"?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For me, it's mostly (b).
As such, the more speed I carry during the turn, the greater the G's force. And greater the feeling of sideway acceleration, the better. Much like the high speed turn on a bicycle or a race car! The modern shaped skis helps a lot to achieve that high G lateral acceleration for less than expert skiers. I'm grateful for its developements.
I do think mike_m has a point that student who believe the main reason to turn is to slow down tend to be the tail tossers! There's no ignoring the fact a hocky stop or side slip is about the fastest way to slow down. I think the traditional teaching WAS turning for slowing down. So as soon as student "discovered" side slipping, they quickly embrace the tail-tossing technique of transitioning from ski pointing downhill to side-slipping.
What I don't understand is why bother wasting so much energy to "debunk" the concept of turning to slow down. It's not a wrong concept, just incomplete!
The point that needs to be focused on, is turning for the sensation of riding a roller coaster without the seat!
That, requires carrying maximum speed throughout the turn, with as little braking as one can manage. Hence, no tail tossing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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mrtoastie, Actually I disagree with you! I do think there's a wrong way to turn: twisting your upper body and flinging the skis round the corner is always wrong.
abc, Are you aquainted with the english expression 'tossers'? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc, abc, totally agree 
Side slipping is actually a tremendous excercise and greatly helps improve skiing.. that is if the pupil has a proper explanation of the "purpose" of the drill...
Side Slipping
- foremost safety.. helps you get down a slope that is steeper than your ability or confidence level will let you descend.
- edging drill... slip and grip is an excellent drill for understanding and developing edge control... it also a good indicator of how centred the students stance and balance is...
- my particular favourite... turn transition... you gotta get those babies flat and get your stance centred before initiating the next turn.
Tail tossing
This is a symptom.. there are numerous potential root causes.
1) Poor stance and balance.. eg. too far back and those tails are gonna washout
2) Rushing turns.. lack of patience!
3) Fear .... "oh my god when I turn my skis down the hill I speed up.... "
4) Lack of understanding of the actual mechanics and breakdown of a turn.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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abc, excellent comment. From a personal perspective, I'm a (b)'er too.
eng_ch, right on!
Why does a skier turn? To change direction.
Why did the chicken cross the road? To get to the other side.
Get my point, Mike? It's a dahhh answer. Of course to change direction, that's what turns do. Perhaps that's why you don't hear it as a response much. It needs a follow up. Why do you WANT to change direction? In that, the common answer for the level of skier you're working with WOULD be to slow down. The skills needed to produce and enjoy the sensations abc described aren't there yet. Turning in of itself is not a joy ride, it's a survival tactic. That, I believe is what easiski in her last post, and I earlier with my "what then" comment, are driving at. The suggestion of a new mental perspective is nice, and I'm sure may provide some rudimentary improvement,,, but ultimately for significant improvement to occur the skills end of the equation has to be addressed.
I'm sure you know that, and that in your presentation you purposely limited your comments to a single concept that you feel has the potential to deliver some visible change in the one hour ski school lesson environment. Perhaps my reaction of yawning at it, then seeking to move beyond, arises from my teaching background in which skiing abilities are refined to VERY high levels via long periods of intense training. I, and any coach who has played a role in the development of upper/world class skiers, know that there are no short cuts to greatness,,, or even goodness for that matter,,, much to the dismay and disappointment of the average American consumer mind-set.
BTW, tail tossing down the falline is an all too common method of getting from the top of the mountain to the bottom for a multitude of recreational skiers. But make no mistake, it's not turning, as all that activity you see taking place has very little effect on changing the skiers actual direction of travel. All it really is doing is serving to keep the skiers speed at a level they find comfortable, while fooling them into thinking they are turning just like the good guys.
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easiski, no it is not... it works.... try it! Rotation really works.. even though it is a clear symptom of poor technique...there are a plethora of underlying causes.. eg. lack of commitment to the outside ski.
I don`t think you understood what I was getting at...
How is L2A these days? Does James Lister still run the ESS and The Secret.... ? It was a sad day when my buddy Kev finally gave in to the normal life and stopped managing Smokey Joes 
If you had read my NB. at the bottom of my post I clearly point out that the best way to turn is by starting from your feet! Seperation is key.
Rotation however is necessary in park and pipe.. but is definately not the best technique to use when turning.
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| mrtoastie wrote: |
Tail tossing
This is a symptom.. there are numerous potential root causes.
1) Poor stance and balance.. eg. too far back and those tails are gonna washout
2) Rushing turns.. lack of patience!
3) Fear .... "oh my god when I turn my skis down the hill I speed up.... "
4) Lack of understanding of the actual mechanics and breakdown of a turn. |
These are good.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
abc, Are you aquainted with the english expression 'tossers'?
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No. If there're "other" meaning of the expression, I'm afraid I'm not aware of it. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Most people who finish their turns do so to maintain an average speed. A less finished turn usually results in an increase of speed, and a more finished turn would indicate a decrease in speed. These can be combined to produce an average speed of decent. A braking turn would be a turn which results in a decrease in average speed, either minimal or to a complete stop. I do turn to a stop, and I teach turning to a stop, but the majority of my turns are for a combination of direction change and to maintain an average speed of decent.
oh, and I personally like the jet plane analogy - it works in my skiing, I usued it all last season after Mike introduced it to me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
| Using different skills at different times and in different situations is not the same. I was concerned that certain people then use that expression as carte blanche to ski as badly and dangerously as they like to the detriment of other piste users! |
Fantastic! 8-) 8-)
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brian
brian
Guest
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| mrtoastie wrote: |
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Why do you turn...?
(a) the rush of speed as you pivot your skis into the fall line?
(b) the nice aggresive grrrr feeling as the pressure builds when the edges bite and they carve across the slope.. ?
(c) the feeling of freefall during the turn transition when you feel weightless ?
(by turn transition I mean initiation, crossover... or whatever the hang your respective instructor governing bodies wish to call it!!)
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All of these but I think my love of (a) is why I never really got the same wow factor out of boarding. Facing down the fall line with the world coming at you is a drug to be reckoned with. 
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FAQ
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would be far too polite to point that out, unlike me..... 
