 Poster: A snowHead
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If you are not going to do BASI L2 coach then there isn't much point in doing L1 with them in my view.
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rjs, Why not? It is an excellent entry level course in its own right, not everyone will want to or be able to progress to the L2 level which is quite difficult i would imagine.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, I meant that if you want to do a L2 course but not BASI's one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ski wrote: |
skimottaret, The 'old' APC1 pass standard was about ISIA (based on the fact that when I did - those who failed had not completed the ISIA technical module).. so BASI L1 Coach must be a lower standard ?
I've done BASI, SSE and SSS qualifications...I don't think any organisation has a monopoly on good courses/trainers/coaches - or bad ones for that matter. |
The new L1 course is definitely easier technically IMO than the SSS APC1 and much easier than the BASI APM. Passing level is 2's out of 4 on the Canadian scale. One guy who passed on our course wasn't very good at all and scrapped 2's. Our best guy had failed the APC the previous season and blazed the L1 course.
The L2 i recon is quite tough and contains the old APM (which 2 tech passes regularly fail) , the ISIA teach and a freestyle module.
I just heard about the HN artificial slope course here which sits below the APC and the Basi L1 may be more in line with that..
I am not indicating that BASI has better/worse course or trainers etc. All i am saying is that the course materials and content on the L1 are based around the latest CSCF courses and the good bits of the APM. According to our trainer the CSCF is the best English speaking coaching system around and that the SSS course content hasn't been updated for years. That was a main reason for the initial development a couple years by BASI of the APM and now with the licensing of the CSCF course i think Basi system will be an excellent pathway for coaches.
Absolutely nothing wrong with going down the ASC, APC1 route i am sure that they are excellent course as well, i just report on my positive experience of the L1 and am trying to make sense of the comparable courses offered by the HN's.
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skimottaret, Being slightly pedantic here but the best guy on our course had failed the APM not the APC, having just passed his 2 tech the week before. I’ve been told that the APM should require the standard of ISIA tech to pass, therefore suggesting something was wrong with it. This could be down to the way they assess you in a point scoring system, you get points for each drill you manage but if you fail one drill they don’t allow you to progress to the next drill so if you can’t do one of the earlier ones you had no chance. What happened with this guy was that he got stuck on the one ski skiing on the inside ski, and was basically made to spend a whole day doing it. As his legs got more and more tired he had less chance of getting it right!
The drills on the course are the type that need practice to perfect, and if you turned up to the course not having mastered them before, you wouldn’t have much chance to nail it in a week. After failing this guy went away and practiced skiing on the inside ski – he can now do it perfectly.
Everyone turning up to do their ISIA tech however, will know exactly what’s expected of them and done it all before. Which in my view is why people who’d passed the ISIA tech failed the APM. And before anyone says if you’re a good enough skier you’ll pick all the drills up straight away, I agree, the very best skiers would. But 5 days is not long to master 15 drills. I’d say all but one of the people who passed our course would have been able to do say 80 - 90% of the APM drills, but because of the way it was scored we wouldn’t all have passed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, your right it was the APM not APC i stand corrected..
your not being pedantic at all... We need to be clear as this discussion involves BASI APM, SSS APC, SSE ASC and ADC, CSCF EL and DL, BASI L1 and L2.
confused  i know i am...
FWIW I skied with two other guys last year who failed the APM and i am defo worse than them, but felt i managed a pretty comfortable pass of the L1. i only know of one guy who passed the APM and he is very good ISIA.
rjs, Is your APC1 SSS or SSE? I only ask as i understood from GrahamN, comments that SSS you must have an Instructor rating and SSE allows you an exemption if you coached another sport. Did you get an exemption for racing points or something? or have they chaged the rules since you did yours. It may be relevent as BASI L1 doesnt require any instructors rating.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, I think the APM is a bit erratic, I know a few people who passed that, and others who passed the APC, and weren't any better than a low ISIA tech pass IMO. e.g I know a guy who passed the APC but subsequently failed his ISIA tech at the first attempt on short turns? One of the complaints I heard about the APC is that it can be inconsistent.
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skimottaret, since we are being pedantic, a correction on your above - I was only talking about SSE, I don't know what SSS's rules are. From the SSEngland website:
ASC requires ASSI or a BASI qualification (I would guess that could mean L1), or coaching experience in another sport, or be a racer with 80 points or less. 80 points is darned fast. There are currently only two Masters registered for artificial slope seeding, since David Blackwell no longer appears to be registered, with that level or better, one of them being Alex Green from your local slope who only just makes it under the bar. Clearly this exemption is to allow in the top junior racers without forcing them to do an instructor qual first (Cory would also just make it, slightly more comfortably, if he were old enough).
APC1 requires ASSI or BASI Instructor (i.e. L2), or ASC.
It looks like ADC is the next step onto being a CI/ASSI trainer/tutor.
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The CSCF charge $110 per day of courses, and $100 for exams.
Thats £165 for a level 1, £275 for a level 2 course + £50 for exam, £275+£165 for both level 3 courses and 2 £50 for both coaching exams
ie, that is basically £1000 for ALL the courses upto a fully cert level 3 coach. The other stuff you have to do is through more general sports bodies, and are the equiv of the UK sport workshops (£10 a go).
rjs, is right I want an affordable option for alpine coaches. The CSCF have one here in a Canada, relatively speaking. So do the HNGB. I can;t believe BASI will want less than £375 their standard fee for a level 1 course, and that they will spread level 2 with exam over 2 weeks for £700 (as per APC 2). So you are already at the full cost right there!
Another £700 - 1000 for the level 3 IF Ross is trained to give that, AND then 2 x £50-100 exam fees and you are talking double the cost.
My suggestion would be for anyone that wants this would be to do a HNGB level 1 or a BASI 1, and then fly to canada in late april to Whistler and over 2 1/2 weeks get 2 & 3 done for less. If you can do 3- 31/2 weeks it is possible to do all of them!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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anyone heard the outcome of SSGB AGM on Sunday?
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paulhothersall, I think your cost comparison brings up a good point.
BASI courses are longer and more training based than North American courses from the PSIA or CSIA/CSCF which are more of an examination as opposed to using continuous assessment as BASI does over their 5 dayers. You can argue which type of course is more effective but when you look at the "day rate" costs they are pretty similar.
BASI are more expensive overall but you do benefit from being trained by a high level instructor during the course. For example to get your ISIA through BASI it is 10 weeks of courses plus some distance learning. CSIA it is 16 days.. Definitely cheaper through canada and it seems to me that outside of BASI other organisations rely on staff training in ski schools to prepare them for the higher levels of exams which may be a better way to go. but unless you live in scotland BASI really doesn't have that as an option and places like interski or other part time schools dont do much training AFAIK for those coming up the ladder.
In terms of coaching and club volunteer instructors the HN's fill a gap here with good value course which dont break the bank both in terms of money and time.
rjs you like to grill me over everything i have stated on this thread but you haven't come back with regards to the question about your not having an instructor license prior to your APC. SSE seem to require an instructor license or race points.
BASI are clear that you do not have to have any instructor rating to do an L1. Do you know what the current HN policy is?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 20-05-08 9:11; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, did someone tell us the BASI / CSCF course is topped up to 5 days to fulfil the coaching requirement of ISIA?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, I dont recall that, i just assumed that it was made longer to fit into a standard 5 day BASI format by adding the stuff from the APM.
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skimottaret, maybe i'm imagining it!
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1, When the ISIA level was moved to (then) Grade 2 (now ISIA), ISIA mandates how much training required. So the Mountain Safety, Common Theory and APC/APM courses became necessary. At the same time, additional, harder Mountain Safety module at Grade 1 (now ISTD).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ski, thought so. And i'm sure someone told me that the coaching module was required to be 5 days, hence the BASI add ons to CSCf
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Poster: A snowHead
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ski, so common theory is an ISIA requirement not a basi one?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, No, the amount of training time is the key, if I understood correctly.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ski, could be but as a BASI ISIA needs 10 weeks of courses and a CSIA 16 days not sure that stacks up...
The Common theory pre-course notes seem to have a lot of topics covered on other modules 
sorry off topic...
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skimottaret, When I did the CT course, it was all about preparing for the other ISIA courses (pity it was the last course I did). I don't know whether BASI have changed the content to cater for this. Can't comment on your CSIA needing 16 weeks, but (in my experience).. 'Old' BASI 2 + CT + APC + Mountain Safety = ISIA  .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, I did my APC1 with SSS, but it was six years ago.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ski wrote: |
| When I did the CT course, it was all about preparing for the other ISIA courses (pity it was the last course I did). |
Don't BASI recommend you do CT first?
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rob@rar, Theoretically, yes, but they don't make it very obvious! I don't know many people who do it first however, a week of lectures doesn't appeal as much as a week with a trainer or guide!!
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beanie1, two Trainers suggested to me that I do it first, and I think it's fairly clear on this page as well. I know what you mean about it not being as appealing as a week skiing with a Trainer though!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, beanie1, It really is worth doing it first. The content is tailored exactly for that purpose.
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ski, too late!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, Answers my other post regarding dry slope hours. They are OK.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I heard tonight that BASI are looking into running the L1 coaches course at MK over weekends. when i know more i will post but if anyone is interested pm me and i will let the tutor know....
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skimottaret, I'm curious about how that would work, although I think I'd prefer the opportunities from doing that course in a resort.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, Agree, it''s probably possible to do it indoors but you'd get so much more out of it in a resort.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, beanie1, L1 coach = APC ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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ski, yes in new money...
I think i may have made a mistake earlier in this thread saying the L1 is easier than the APC1. Certainly is easier than the BASI APM which i was told last night was designed as a test to see if you are ready for the 1 tech and is still a module for the L2 coach.
The L1 grading isnt as hard as a normal BASI course in that you need 2 of 4's on the canadian scale to pass. Most basi courses you need 4 or 5's of 6 so may be a bit easier to pass if you are on the bubble. That said on the course beanie1 and i did, 2 guys had 2 tech passes and 3 or 4 more passed a few weeks later so the level was quite high.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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interesting news from Aviemore...
The BASI coach course levels are being reworked and adjusted. The L1 will now be a 3 day course and will be pitched around the same level as the SSE Artificial coach level as well as the CSCF entry level....
The L1 course will be run in the mountains and the snowdomes as well
THe L2 will be a further 4 day course. The L3 will include some of the ISIA modules like common theory and APM...
The detail will be released very shortly. beanie1, you'll be pleased to know you will automatically be "upgraded" to an L2 coach 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, did Sean indicate what sort of personal performance would be required to pass L3 Coach?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, Just a guess - but similar to ISIA.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, didnt ask but my guess is if the APM is involved it will be a good ISIA tech pass level....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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ski & skimottaret, thanks. Not out of the realm of possibility then...
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ski, ISIA is not enough, speed test (euro test) is in reality about 160 FIS GS points, no matter what it is supposed to be. L3 coach is about 80 FIS SL & GS points approx based on this years exams in Canada.
Now is BASI choose to water it down I would not expect the CSCF to keep accrediting them.
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paulhothersall, So a big jump from L2 then.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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paulhothersall, i think it is a bit early days to determine what the L3 level will be given they havent run the course yet and are just about to release the course info. lets wait and see if BASI are "watering down" the CSCF L3 course.
I skied with a canadian L3 trainer druing a course and he was seriously good and i would expect around the 80 FIS point mark you mention if not better.. Curious as to why you think the Eurotest is in reality 160 points... BASI recon around 120 typically.
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BASI launch its new coaching scheme:
Level 1 dual BASI development coach / CSCF certificate ( ideal for ski instructors looking at understanding coaching)
Level 2 development coach (BASI ISIA requirement)
Level 3 performance coach ( speed test required)
Level 4 elite coach (you better be s**t hot for this one)!
Got this direct from BASI trainer PSG today.
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