 Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, i dont want to get technical but kids have less strength in their limbs and their balance point is higher up because they have bigger heads and less mass in their limbs than adults. so, they get away with the "racing snowplough" position and lean back into the mountain. but if you teach this position it is more difficult to get them to progress towards parallel skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, Yeah, I know, have read this before and am wholly convinced BUT, in that case, how do you get them to slow down and stop (without turning)? Or are you saying that veeight had set a trick question, and that you shouldn't in fact teach small kids to snowplough-stop at all?!  I should say that I hadn't assumed he was talking just about an adult learner.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nobody should be taught that snowplough is a way of stopping.
Stopping is for losers.
Skiing is about go not stop.
(hey, I'm turning into whitegold  )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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For those people who have taught beginners to snowplough, if you say "push the heels out" do you see some skiers sit back on their heels when they do this, or do the stay in a reasonably good position on their skis? I know when I do a big snowplough (to come to a stop) I tend to drop back on my heels. Do beginners do this when they are just in a gliding plough?
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Hmm, I'm fairly positive that I can get my skis into the pie shape, bend my knees to get my weight forward, and still have my feet and skis perfectly flat on the snow - the edging does not occur automatically, rather I have to pronate to achieve it. In fact, on the right slope, I can do quite a passable racing snowplough! Maybe that's because of flexible hip joints and pixie size, and is not in fact 'normal'? (Boots are snug.) ??
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Hurtle, have to say I'm having trouble getting my head around that. Are you sure your skis are perfectly flat on the snow without you taking action to make them that way? Or is the edging of your skis just not very great, so doesn't have a discernible effect on straight line speed?
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rob@rar, To be honest, I'm not sure, I'd need a snowy slope to try and work it out.
This all shows that re-visiting stuff you do automatically is a great way of learning, doesn't it? I can probably live happily with the manner in which I execute a snowplough, but this approach would probably work wonders on other aspects of my woeful technique!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, I'm going through that process at the moment, revisiting stuff which I've done instinctively for years to work out (a) what actually happens, and (b) how could I describe that to a variety of learners.
As for your snowplough, if your feet are wider apart that the width of your hips I'm not sure how your skis can be anything other than on their inside edges to some degree (not talking much) unless you roll your knees and ankles outwards?
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rob@rar, You're probably right, and they are very slightly on edge - but not enough to make me stop. I can say with some certainty that I don't roll my knees or ankles outwards.........I think.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If at all possible (ie appropriate terrain is available) I wouldn't specifically teach using the snowplough to stop, I'd teach them to turn to control speed first.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, Interestingly I have the same feelings about learning to board. We should learn to stop by turning off the fall line rather that trying to stop going down it or avoid turning into it.
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Hurtle, rob@rar, "John Wayne" skiing
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You know it makes sense.
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david@mediacopy, Particularly difficult for me, since I'm a bit knock-kneed!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar I've seen it in a few beginners and not always equestrian types either . . A seemingly lovely snowplough but with flat ski's.
Hurtle, It certainly hurts me when I try it 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| david@mediacopy, Particularly difficult for me, since I'm a bit knock-kneed! |
If that's the case I'd guess it's more likely that your snowplough will put your skis onto their edges.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, yeah, I agree, that's why I get puzzled shooting off down the hill in me racing snowplough!
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skimottaret, You absolutely have to tell the beginners to open their legs as they push their heels out. They do also usually have to have it explained that the wider the plough the slower they'll go. Any tendency to either sit back or keep the knees together should have been removed with the straight running exercises. If they do it then "a V in your skis and a V in your legs" usually does the trick. If they cross their tips (unusual in adults IME) they can think that the skis should be friends, but not married!
I would teach children to snowplough like this - most of my beginners are adults though. For kids then a pizza or cake or cheese is usually the way to go. It's not good talking about pizzas to a kid who hates them but loves chocolate cake! With very small kids they can choose their favourite one and then imagine eating it afterwards.
I would not teach kids to plough to a stop, but I do teach adults - I know - it's unpopular! However, so long as it's properly explained as a temporary measure for the first couple of days only, I don't find it a problem. Most adult learners have one question when they start "how do I stop?"
abc, I would absolutely not say push out a ski to turn - it starts them off turning by force (!) and their own effort - not by using the design of the ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So - how would you teach someone to do a chinese snowplough?!! 
Evidently I'm not suggesting it's something for beginners, ha ha!
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beanie1, that comes back to ankles again!! By then they can actually plough - seriously I do it pushing the hip over with one hand to start. I don't do it all that often though as many peeps (myself included) find it uncomfortable! Really good exercise for finding the edges though. 
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easiski, so you tell beginners to open their legs as they push their heels out, but, you absolutely NOT say push out a ski to turn???
Perhaps it is just symantecs but i dont like to introduce the words "pushing" or "pressure" too early and i agree snow ploughs stops are to be avoided initially but can give some comfort to adults....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar,
Snow plough position, one ski edged, one ski flat, body facing downhill. Then switch edges. You will zig zag down the (gentle) slope.
It's quite tricky!
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beanie1, crab walks!!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beanie1, Space invaders!!! Was doing some yesterday at Aldershot.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar,
Ha ha, that is a good name for it!
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beanie1,
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It's quite tricky!
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and hard to correct, i see a lot of kids crabbing on the dry slopes and it tough to correct without resorting to leaning and "tea pot" drills.
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You know it makes sense.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
rob@rar,
Ha ha, that is a good name for it! |
But surely you're too young to understand the reference?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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beanie1, and once upon a time I was queen of those and snowplough wedeln.... My instructor had me do them and practice all over the place.... the other instructors used to suggest I would probably pass a demo of them better than them as I did so many....
he would set me a "plan" like x crab walks then x snow plow wedeln.... and I was to ski the patterns.... then stuff like snowplow wedeln into short turns (again with set patterns)... etc etc.... Confused one of the trainers (home resort not ours so did not know me) at one point because he thought one of his group had escaped... (the instructors told me at coffee time as I was just heading off as they came in... ) I was just ahead of his group doing almost the same drill...very funny as he skied past me glaring at me...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
I'm old enough! My parents first home computer had space invaders - on one of those casettes that tool about half an hour to load!
skimottaret
We did it as a drill in my Grade 3 and the Trainer told us about a time he'd used it in a Grade 1 tech. Only 3 of the group could do it, and which 3 passed?!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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beanie1,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, easiski, is "chinese snowplough" part of the British ski instructing vernacular? What does it originate from?
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slikedges, no idea!
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| skimottaret wrote: |
easiski, so you tell beginners to open their legs as they push their heels out, but, you absolutely NOT say push out a ski to turn???
Perhaps it is just symantecs but i dont like to introduce the words "pushing" or "pressure" too early and i agree snow ploughs stops are to be avoided initially but can give some comfort to adults.... |
Pushing out the heels to open the skis and pushing out the ski to turn (thus forcing the ski - sorry - regular word, regular meaning) are two totally different things entirely. Pushing the ski out to turn is what we used to do before carving skis - what a waste of equipment to do the same stuff as way back when, and why should beginners be any different. Never teach them anything they'll have to unlearn is what I believe. Start them off using the design of the ski to do the work, and hopefully they'll never become that bully, out of control, forcy, skiddy, dangerous skier that we all know!! "the appliance of science" (although limited science in my case) 
I would like to ask you what else they are doing? They are, in fact, pushing their heels out. In a turn they are pressing something (what, can vary, obviously). If you are pressing, you are applying pressure in normal language.. Regardless - when going through the exam progression you have to use the phrases in the book or you will fail!  
I don't have any problem with snowplough stops at all. It just has to be done right and taught right.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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beanie1, That's appalling - it should be fairly easy for anyone at Grade 1 tech level.
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easiski,
yeah, guess that's why they failed!!
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