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Slalom training on plastic

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
GrahamN, No, slikedges isn't mixing up left and right.
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GrahamN
Fair enough, not that clear. It's skier's left and right, like this:
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 Fall line

   |             //
   |            \ /
   |            \\
   |            \ /
   |             //
   V

And it is a hop rather than a step. Dunno why I was doing it. Coach said to, I guess! Embarassed
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GrahamN, young Dan seemed to be top boy and a few of the girls were very good as well... much stronger skiers overall than i anticipated. I had on some old gash rossi's which need a wax and a sharpen but no equipment excuses, i was just pants....

Nick W, felt like i was on tele gear. believe me rolling eyes I was planning on going on the 30th but scored some rugby tickets and will be in Paris.... Cool Cool

Tick Tack Drill - start in a plough position and while keeping your tips on the ground at all times and poles planting in front of you hop the tail of your left ski to match your right and then back to plough then hop right ski to match left and back again. if you are old and slow v difficult to not slide when skis are momentarily parallel.... the drills purpose is to get onto the fronts of the skis, develop some rythym and dynamicism, and, to look stupid in front of nimble 15 year olds.....
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skimottaret wrote:
to look stupid in front of nimble 15 year olds.....

Were you actually training with the kids? Shocked
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OK, thanks. Confusion was that I was trying to keep the body moving directly down the fall line, resulting in skis getting tied in knots - whereas this looks like the body moves from side to side following the outer ski. "Coach said so" seems a good reason. Looks to me as if it's aiming to get spring in the legs, and learning to land/balance on a clean edge. Can't see at first sight why skimottaret should have had trouble with it though? Edit - OK seen skimottaret's explanation now - clearly I was thinking of yet another variant.
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skimottaret wrote:
to look stupid in front of nimble 15 year olds.....

Why did I read that as "nubile"? Embarassed .
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GrahamN, actually the good peeps were slowly advancing down the fall line with shoulders quite square to the fall line AND doing it in pairs with good rythym.

definately to get spring in the legs and developing rythym and balance.

Quote:

Can't see at first sight why skimottaret should have had trouble with it though?
You havent seen the MRI's of my knees Laughing , to be fair it was new to me and i struggled more with the rythym but definately will need lots of practise to get close to doing it correctly.
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GrahamN, yes, I think what you've said is right - it's important to keep weight forwards, land lightly on edges in dynamic posture so can flex to absorb pressure. It helps balance in all planes, accurate edge set, quick movements to good posture, hard work on the jumping leg, and pressure control to absorb. Good to practise on the flat before trying it on a slope but yes, not too bad once you've got the rhythm sorted.
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rob@rar wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
to look stupid in front of nimble 15 year olds.....

Were you actually training with the kids? Shocked


yup and quite a few were handy skiiers with that rubber leg school of carving on plastic. Some of the better ones were skiing one skied quite quickly turning i would guess in 6 - 8 foot corridors. Did see a couple of good head plants so quickly put a lid on Skullie

I cant bring myself to angulate going slow on such a skiddy surface, so this is going to take some time and practice.
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GrahamN wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
to look stupid in front of nimble 15 year olds.....

Why did I read that as "nubile"? Embarassed .


you better book your BASI child protection module quick
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skimottaret wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
to look stupid in front of nimble 15 year olds.....

Were you actually training with the kids? Shocked


yup and quite a few were handy skiiers with that rubber leg school of carving on plastic. Some of the better ones were skiing one skied quite quickly turning i would guess in 6 - 8 foot corridors. Did see a couple of good head plants so quickly put a lid on Skullie

I cant bring myself to angulate going slow on such a skiddy surface, so this is going to take some time and practice.


Their knees don't seem to work in the same way as mine! Although I wonder whether they need to make a change to their technique on snow?

I know what you mean about reluctance to angulate, I feel exactly the same way, particularly when just about every turn my ski breaks away. Vicious circle I think: no angulation = no grip.
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slikedges,
Quote:

Fall line

| //
| \ /
| \\
| \ /
| //
V


That looks to me, giving due allowance for the fact that it's happening on a slope, like an almost perfect representation of the ancient game of hopscotch! Toofy Grin I think girls play hopscotch more than boys, so maybe the laydeez are better at this exercise??
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Hurtle, Hopscotch in the States is known as tick tacks so perhaps that is where it came from, the trainer had spent time in the USA.

Quote:

Their knees don't seem to work in the same way as mine! Although I wonder whether they need to make a change to their technique on snow?


I think they do as a few of the plastic club racers i skied with on snow did a lot of pivot type turns and were constantly getting pulled up for this.

Quote:

I know what you mean about reluctance to angulate, I feel exactly the same way, particularly when just about every turn my ski breaks away. Vicious circle I think: no angulation = no grip.


this seems to be the trick, getting 98kg of lard to angulate slowly on a skiddy narrow surface
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hurtle, certainly turns your legs into butterscotch if you do it too much Laughing as for laydeez being better at an exercise that involves dynamically opening and closing their legs I don't know but might be interested in finding out wink
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skimottaret,
Quote:

Hopscotch in the States is known as tick tacks

Aha!
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slikedges, wink
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slikedges,
BTW, hopscotch would itself be a lot more difficult if you started (with your feet parallel) at an angle each time. So if it were me, I'd try pointing straight down the fall line (but if the slope were of any steepness, I would doubtless wipe out in two seconds!)
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Hurtle, you'd start in a wedge or plough with your sticks supporting you but definitely a blue rather than black exercise to begin with so's to avoid ending up black and blue!
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GrahamN, you mentioned sharp edges, what do you recommend for edge angles on plastic. on snow i use 1 degree base and 88 side. is that pointless as it would dull too quickly?
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skimottaret, I use 0.5 degrees and 87 Shocked . I had previously used 0.5/88 and noticed a major improvement adding that extra degree - but as I also changed my edge tool/file at the same time it may just be that I was doing it better. I've now changed my tool again (fnaar, fnaar) and I think this '87' is less acute that my previous '87', but the edge comes up sharper. I do find it difficult to justify the effect of such small changes intellectually though - I suspect there's probably a load of mentally fulfilling expectations, and a (double) blind test would show remarkably little difference. Whatever the true effect of edge angle, way more dominant is whether that edge is sharp or not (i.e. the edges remain flat to their junction, or get rounded as they approach it).
Code:

     This                       vs this               vs this
       /                             /                         /
      /                             /                         /
     /                             /                         |
    /                              |                          \
    --------                        ------                     ----------

All '87' (OK more like 50 degrees)

Run your finger down the edge of a ski immediately after vou've sharpened it, and after the first run on it and you will feel a difference - and I don't think that will be hugely different whether it's 90 or 87.

(If anyone wants to challenge my scepticism on this, feel free, but your challenge will only have validity if you've skied two pairs of skis, of identical make, model and age in which the only difference in preparation is the edge angle - and been able to correctly identify which pair of skis you're skiing often enough to be statistically significant. Anything less and your expectations could be affecting your judgement. I'm not saying that challenge would be wrong, just that there's no more proof for it than there is for my scepticism. I still sharpen my skis to 87 degrees though Wink )
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Re Tick Tac/Hopscotch. Someone posted up a very similar dryland exercise about a year ago (although this doesn't get the effects of keeping the tip on the ground), I seem to remember with an animated gif. Jump sideways from left foot to right, then bring the left foot in to tap the ground next to the right, then bounce back to left and tap right next to left. Repeat until knackered. Concentrate on spring and lightness of landing. If that's too easy, jump from left to right, then hop again from right further to your right before doing the left foot tap. Fall over after about 2 cycles Laughing .
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GrahamN, so you dont think an 87 or 88 will dull any more quickly than a 90? i dont particularily want to have to get a 90 degree file holder but i am sure i heard that 87 dulls very quickly on snow and if as you say you can see a difference in sharpness after one run i would be tempted to just use my 88 and sharpen after each training session.
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GrahamN, my instructor used to tune my skis and had some great fun changing angles on me and not telling me.... I'd just whine about how I was struggling with xxxxx and he would smile and eventually tell me what he did.... the worst was when his buddy gave me skis that had not had angles set after a base grind... so i was skiing with 0 base bevel.... (with the canadian instructor) and moaning about feeling a bit like my skis were "messy" and thinking I was having a bad day.... Instructor had a fit when he realised I'd gone off on them.... but found the description from myself and the canadian quite interesting...

According to him yes I can tell the difference because I behave differently even though I don't know the skis have been changed...

I mostly ski my skis as 0.5base and 3 side.... but he says he "worked me into" those angles... ie I had more base and less side to start with...
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little tiger, I know what you mean, i had a base and edge grind done at my dry slope and the guy could only do a 90 degree. two days into my basi course i couldnt believe how bad the skis turned and assumed it was me being rusty but i finally, meekly said to my trainer that my short turns arent normally that bad and not to blame my equipment but... she marched me down to the local ski tuning guys, they put an 88 on and the difference was amazing....
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skimottaret, yeah I had a shop in Utah "tune" my Stocklis when I asked for a wax and sharpen.... I swore that they did not ski quite right.... When I got them back to the Stockli shop they said they were very surprised that I could ski them at all.... edge angle was all over the place....

Ditto the skis I hired at the PSB... felt odd - but not my skis and we know I'm fussy about ski feel....so I ignore it... until the last day when I skied with Fred and he decides to check the edges in the Gondola as the conditions are so icy.... turns out they are ROUND... no wonder they felt "odd" ....

He then grabbed me a pair of demo skis that HE thought I should ski on - MUCH better...

I think I need to master the tuning stuff... Shocked
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skimottaret wrote:
little tiger, I know what you mean, i had a base and edge grind done at my dry slope and the guy could only do a 90 degree. two days into my basi course i couldnt believe how bad the skis turned and assumed it was me being rusty but i finally, meekly said to my trainer that my short turns arent normally that bad and not to blame my equipment but... she marched me down to the local ski tuning guys, they put an 88 on and the difference was amazing....

So you've answered you own question - stick with the 88 unless/until you feel you want more, or can get away with less.
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skimottaret, GrahamN, I don't think the base bevel makes much difference on plastic.... Confused 87 side certainly wrecks my gloves Laughing Laughing
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ski, yeah I had no idea why my gloves were getting mangled when they had not before.... until my instructor explained what he had been doing to my skis... suddenly it all became abundantly clear why my gloves were now being eaten...
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ski wrote:
skimottaret, GrahamN, I don't think the base bevel makes much difference on plastic.... Confused 87 side certainly wrecks my gloves Laughing Laughing


Not so sure about that; I recently had to help out with the ski prep of a couple of the Hemel juniors and was curious to see that the both had 88 side but no base. Without telling them I put 1 degree of base onto them (which is how I do my son's) and was surprised when they both came back from the Ipswich race raving about how their skis performed.
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ski, My nice new Hestra gloves got a big nick in them first time out with my new, very sharp, Fischer RC4's Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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Blimey it hurts when you take a big fall! Thumbs are OK, but I think I landed on my head as I have a lump the size of an egg which is currently nesting underneath an icepack. Thank God for helmets, otherwise that might have been a bit nasty.
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rob@rar, yikes hurt already, will definately have my lid on thursday. just a bump or anything more serious?
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skimottaret, no just a bump and probably some bruises in the morning. Might have a touch of whiplash as well as I landed heavily on my back, head first, and my neck snapped backwards onto the plastic. It feels very stiff already. Not entirely certain what happened but I think I got flipped up and sideways.
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rob@rar, take it easy and get the neck looked at. i had a whiplash in a car accident and it continues to be a nagging injury. if it is stiff i would guess a bit of physio is in order........
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Week 2 report. got ahold of some polar x wax and sharpened my skis before going this week and it made a big difference. occasionally actually felt like i was turning properly, so cant blame the tools....

New drill of the week, the Ollie, and low and behold i was actually pretty good at this one although difficult my recent telemark lessons helped and i was doing okay and better than most of the youths, Confidence builds!!

the course is again set difficult with races coming up with with sharp edges and some wax i am able to carry some speed and finish the course about 2/3's of my runs. Get my first crash in as well which put a nice scrape on the trousers and a very slight tweak on my left thumb. Boxing gloves on order!!

Even get some instruction this week from the coaches and they recon i should be more upright and incline instead of trying to angulate... odd as i spent all last season trying to angulate and not incline... also i counter too much and they have me getting my shoulders to stay in line with the skis.

Two reasonable runs and although skiddy managed to finish the course with some speed at the ends instead of having to skate.

so some improvement and not total rubbish Laughing
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Guys , use one or the other but don't mix them. If you say that your base is 1 degree bevel then don't switch midway and say that your edge is 87. It's 3.
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skimottaret, what's an ollie?
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rob@rar, Ollie drill, on a flattish pitch start off in a straight glide, sink low and pop upwards with one leg skiing on the tip only and the other leg the tail only. Try to get as high as you can with you feet at a least 6" off the mats and holding yourself up just on the tip and the tail. as you come back down re centre and pop up with opposite leg forward.

kinda like a tele turn
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skimottaret, That sounds more like swedish turns (without the turns). An ollie is when you jump just the tips of your skis (balance aft), as opposed to a nollie, where you jump just the tails of your skis (balance fore).
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jimmjimm, sorry but 0.5/1 and 90/88/87 are what's written on my guides (3 different makes of edge, 2 different makes of base) so that's what I'm going to stick with. Tough.

skimottaret, good to see you're getting into it. I feel the "Summer Racing" thread next year is going to get quite busy, and competitive Wink .
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