 Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
PhillipStanton, i am going to invoke EU law for a zimmer frame handicap during the TT  |
You may joke, but it's going to happen at some point.
Somone will either challenge the current arrangements in the European courts on the basis of restraint of trade or equality laws.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GrahamN wrote: |
..... one of our courses required quite a bit of steered edging to get through.
Racing is about making the most appropriate blend of edging, rotation and pressure control to make the fastest passage through the course - albeit the major element of that being edge control - with continual use of appropriate balance and recovery skills. As such it's using the same skills as for all-mountain skiing, but with a very different blend. |
I think you might find that quite a few race coaches will disagree with some of that. A pivot entry, or stivot, has a different purpose to an all mountain steered turn.
Racers that continually steer don't win. It's a speed dumping mechanism (to quote Fastman). Slow racers steer. Racers that are observed to be steering are more likely than not to be in recovery mode.
At the end of the day all mountain instructional philosophy is about controllong or maintaining speed, racing is about generating or maximising speed. Two totally different outcomes. Specific race training does not (or shouldn't ) have the same objectives as all mountain skiing. Kids who spend their entire lives in gates do not ski the whole mountain well.
There no doubt will follow, a debate as to what is steering.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Tim Brown wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
care to elaborate?  |
Allow me. If BASI were to raise the bar too high, then the worthless pile of decrepit old rubbish that pay them great big chunks of their early retirement lump sums each year, quit simply wouldn't bother doing BASI's courses. So BASI would be stuck trying to wring money out of rich, middle-class peoples' teenage kids. |
obviously you have a beef with BASI. But loads of holiday skiers in the Alps and in the UK prefer British instructors that speak English that they can understand.
What is the alternative? having ski guiding from a Rupert from the SKi Club? |
I've never had a French speaking instructor that I didn't understand. If I were learning again, I would prefer my instructor not to be a 50 something for whom BASI lowered the bar to allow through.
Ski instructors should start young. I agree with easiski, ski teaching is supposed to be a profession and not a hobby for some over-paid, lazy middle-class git. These people are rubbish skiers who make low grade instructors. Because they start at the bottom and generally stay there, they block out opportunities for youngsters.
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Hi Guys
New to this forum but a very interesting discussion.
Would someone like to comment on why 18% for men & 22% for women is not sex discrimination??
( First post but is it time to duck)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| GrahamN wrote: |
..... one of our courses required quite a bit of steered edging to get through.
Racing is about making the most appropriate blend of edging, rotation and pressure control to make the fastest passage through the course - albeit the major element of that being edge control - with continual use of appropriate balance and recovery skills. As such it's using the same skills as for all-mountain skiing, but with a very different blend. |
I think you might find that quite a few race coaches will disagree with some of that. A pivot entry, or stivot, has a different purpose to an all mountain steered turn.
Racers that continually steer don't win. It's a speed dumping mechanism (to quote Fastman). Slow racers steer. Racers that are observed to be steering are more likely than not to be in recovery mode.
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I beg to differ, GrahamN is dead right on this one. In modern racing especially in GS perfect carved turns come into it but a LOT of steering is also involved. Go look at a few video's of Max Blardone who is probably the best technical skier out there, he adopts this technique most of the time. Shame his mental is not as strong.
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veeeight, But dont you think that having some racing skills/knowledge can only help a teacher when teaching all mountain skiing just like bumps or off pistes skills or having a second discipline. Surely the more well rounded you are the better skier and instructor you are..
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skimottaret, yes of course some racing knowledge would be useful as you move up the teaching ladder -but surely you would welcome the opportunity to be able to teach at a lower level and develop upwards as your skills improve.Having to come into the job with the HIGHEST skill level makes no sense -in most jobs we develop our skills as we progess and being able to do the job HELPS us progress
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redrunmarcus, I agree and that is what i am advocating. Level 1 and 2 dont do any racing but at the next level ISIA some racing and an "entry" level test then onto the highest instructor rating the ISTD and the Eurotest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, yes but as we all know you cannot teach in France without race testing-out of interest if there was to be snow in Scotland could you teach there with BASI 3 (as was)?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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LARGEZOOKEEPER, No where in this thread did I ever say that race technique is all about the perfect carved turn. Like I said, it all depends on your definition of steering. I'll say again, anytime you introduce an element of a pressured rotary element, you'll slow down, it's a speed dumping move. Note that I didn't say it was "wrong" or not done, it's just slow.
skimottaret, Yes, the more rounded you are, the better. But as I've said before, introducing a race element at BASI L2 will most likely cause undue focus on the race element for the candidates, rather like the TT/Eurotest has done.
IMV there are far too many skiers out there that have done the whole training thing a@se about face. They should concentrate on developing their skills outside of gates, skiing the whole mountain, free skiing, and then after a few years, take this into the gates. Too many jump straight into gates and race training without the balance etc. having been developed properly first. I say this from years of observation of training kids on the mountain from both camps. The CSCF have reflected this in training in recent years for their most junior levels J4's etc. by changing the fundemental focus being FUNdementals in all mountain terrain (ie: not introducing gates in the early stages, and concentrating outside the course).
But training outfits aren't going to stop taking your money if you want to do it either way round.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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veeeight, I posted above that i dont think a race element should be introduced at L2, the post title was to promote debate. But i do feel at ISIA level you should have it for reasons i have already stated. Surely by that time you have done all the whole mountain, free skiing etc and if you are ready for training at CSIA 3 /BASI ISIA level you are ready and able to ski gates as another link in your skill/knowledge base..
I agree with you that a lot of youngsters are focusing too much on gates at an early age and indeed almost solely by the sound of some artificial clubs here. A basi 1 commented to me that when he is shadowing instructor training at L1 and L2 he sees a lot of "one trick ponies" that are very strong in on piste short/long turns through years of junior racing but are very weak in other areas, and, critically cant adjust their styles to cope with variation...
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| redrunmarcus wrote: |
| skimottaret, yes but as we all know you cannot teach in France without race testing-out of interest if there was to be snow in Scotland could you teach there with BASI 3 (as was)? |
I dont know about Scotland but i dont think you have any entry tests there.
But in the other Euro zone countries (which BASI is a part of) they all have some sort of minimum standard test as well as the advanced Eurotest for top grade. France TT, Itally Aoasta valley, etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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pistedude,
Fairly obvious answer to your question I'm afraid - women are physically smaller / less strong than men on the whole, and therefore will never be as fast. Women don't compete against men professionally in pretty much every sport. And welcome to Snowheads!
skimottaret,
I think you have a point there - surely it is age discrimination under some EU law or other?! Anyone want to challenge it?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, The Andorrans about 4 years ago introduced a requirement for people to comlpete a locally run course in addition to their BASI 3(old money). The widely held misconcept that everything in Andorra is slack, flies in the face of the fact of the envied reputation of the ski school there. (Oops I have just re-read that and sound like easiski re. ESF)
Some years ago the ski school got into a loop of the instructors preparing(from Monday) their students for the Friday skischool races, it became so much of a competition between the instructors that only the fastest in the group lesson got any attention to the detriment of the rest who were in more need of good instruction. It has now reverted back to Friday being a fun day, and people are getting better value.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dypcdiver, interesting to here Andorrans have an entry level test as well. Do you know details (GS or SL , times required etc)
beanie1, Do you know if on the Eurotest are the women handicapped against a female pacesetter or a male? If a male perhaps that is why the extra allowance is given....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret,
I think (but I may be wrong here) that's it's against a male pacesetter which is why the extra allowance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, Perhaps you should ask "Admin" to make this a poll, on a yes or no basis.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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speaking as someone who was once well on the BASI ladder, i think the tests are good. yes some instructors are better than others, but the tests ensure that the skiing level is pretty much the same. you will always get better and worse instructors/coaches in every sport. i dont really understand why some of you's are getting worked up over it, are you thinking of going the basi route??? i was at the point where i was thinking of the french tests, but it did not worry me, had got that far wasnt going to let anything stop me...... well until i got sick of the whole teaching skiing that is....lol i was honestly more worried about my "inland kayak white water profficiency" course, not even sure if that exists these days
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Tim Brown wrote: |
| I agree with easiski, ski teaching is supposed to be a profession |
I also agree with both of you - in an ideal world.
But in the real world, running a ski school is such a seasonal business, with such extreme ups and downs of customer traffic, it is hard to see how it could be done without using the part-timers who come in for busy periods. This is a bit off the topic of race testing - sorry! 
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Skiing isn't the ski instructor's ideal world. It's largely market driven. An unimaginable number of people have the potential to be decent ski instructors for the huge majority of recreational skiers, even if fat, lazy and middle-class. In any occupation placing hoops is only partly in the interests of the punter who wishes to avail themselves of that service.
So far as racing goes, if it floats your boat, that's what you're gonna do. Market forces. You're not going to spend years skiing the whole mountain first just 'cos some instructor thinks you should.
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slikedges, Nice one, I really don't quite see the relationship between setting a time on a race course and 3 foot of powder, which in my opinion is what skiing is about.
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Dypcdiver, skiing is only about skiing in 3 foot of powder? Just out of interest, how many days per year do you ski? Do you think that skiing on piste and skiing off piste uses mutually exclusive technique and skills?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, he said 'in his opinion'.
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| Tim Brown wrote: |
| rob@rar, he said 'in his opinion'. |
But he didn't say "I'm only interested in skiing powder, so I don't care whether any instructor I have has ever skied gates", which would be a perfectly valid opinion, although not a sensible one (in my opinion).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, I don't know what it is with you and racers but racing ability isn't seen as being all that important for someone wanting to teach people up to parallel. It's debatable if it's much help for teaching powder either.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thank you LZK.
veeeight.... but remember that racing is about a) getting through a course b) in the fastest time possible. a) is a pre-requisite before b) even comes into it. And I'm sure Bode wouldn't have adopted his less carved style if it'd been slower down the course.
| veeeight wrote: |
| At the end of the day all mountain instructional philosophy is about controllong or maintaining speed, racing is about generating or maximising speed. Two totally different outcomes. Specific race training does not (or shouldn't ) have the same objectives as all mountain skiing. Kids who spend their entire lives in gates do not ski the whole mountain well. |
Only partially true. Racing is about maximising speed over the length of the course, not at every point along it. In a half-decently set course you may be able to blast the top, but then there will be a couple of gates which will spit you out of the course very unceremoniously if you continue in that vein - or you have to kill speed big time at a highly disadvantageous position. Speed control is the essence of the vast majority of courses I've been in, and this is at the most basic levels of competition. There have been a few courses set where you just blast from top to bottom, and they've attracted derision from pretty much every racer in that race!
I'd agree that spending your entire life in gates does not produce a rounded skier - I hardly ever go near a gate in my precious time in the mountains - but again, an either/or position is not being suggested, rather including it as a element in development leading to a objective rather than subjective assessment of on-piste technical ability. (In previous versions of this discussion we've mentioned the difficulty of trying to set up an equivalent general off-piste test - although I guess a bumps test wouldn't be too hard to devise). Race training should not be purely about skiing gates though. Three examples 1) PG always made the point that his kid's club probably had a good couple of forays a week playing follow-my-leader with the coaches off-piste on their GS skis. 2) We probably spend 3 months of the year hardly seeing a gate, just working on technical elements, and we're about as amateur a club as you can get. 3) I've heard coaches say you should train 80% out of the gates, 20% in - I'm not sure I'd agree with that mix unless you're already an experienced racer, but I'd probably go more 50-50 or 60-40 for those of us with less experience.
And testing and forcing improvements in balance is a more integral part of race training than any other form of training I've been involved in (a major point also made IIRC by FastMan). Probably best to say in my case that's still "work in progress".
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 2-09-07 12:03; edited 1 time in total
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GrahamN, I think you and veeeight, have a difference in terminology re steering ...
IIRC Fastman tells me that in racing terms steering is turning a ski with engaged edge ....
What racers do (and I am needing to learn sometime soon) is a pivot - involving retraction, pivot ski while edges are not engaged and then feather to a carve (this is the tricky part - you need to not dump speed so need to have finesse doing this).
Easiski and I have been working a bit on the feathering stuff and some work on compression turns to get me out of the extension "pattern"... So I'm hoping I can get that together soon... (Need to work on higher edge angles also... so much balance work for me still to come - but I am improving)
In most recreational skiing folks terminology any "turning" of ski is steering - but this definition Fastman and Veeeight are using is also what I was taught by my instructors at home. So I think you are all actually saying the same thing sort of but with different words so getting tied up in the words.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Tim Brown wrote: |
| rob@rar, I don't know what it is with you and racers but racing ability isn't seen as being all that important for someone wanting to teach people up to parallel. It's debatable if it's much help for teaching powder either. |
However technical ability is seen as of utmost importance for teaching folks up to parallel by all the trainers and examiners and race coaches I know... They have a great dislike of having to re-teach intermediate skiers who have been taught poor technique by instructors with poor understanding and technical skills. I don't think I've met one who disagrees that the first few lessons are the most important you will ever take.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger, you don't need to be a sh-i-t hot racer to properly teach the basics.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tim Brown, who said anything about s-hot? Simply decent technical skills will get you a Nastar Gold which is the level of racing required for a PSIA 3(ISIA) in Rocky Mountains.... anything less and I doubt you should be teaching anyone to ski as you obviously do not get it (yet)...
If you cannot run an easy course in a decent time there is an issue .... I had some of my early lessons with a technically poor skier( yet a PSIA 2) - total waste of my time and effort... luckily my FIRST few months were spent with a more technically competent skier...
Switching over to more technical instructors sure made a difference - but I did need to go back to stem christies for a bit to undo the harm from the poor instructor and get the basics back correctly (my first instructor had taught me to stem christie level so to there i was good... my parallel sucked!)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Tim Brown wrote: |
| rob@rar, I don't know what it is with you and racers but racing ability isn't seen as being all that important for someone wanting to teach people up to parallel. It's debatable if it's much help for teaching powder either. |
Tim, can you explain what "racing ability" is, and how it differs from what you and I do when we ski? The context for my question is timed tests for instructors such as the Eurotest, not what the likes of Bode and Benni get up to.
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| Dypcdiver wrote: |
| And to answer the bit about mutually exclusive, no ... |
And that is my whole point; I'm glad we agree. Skiing through gates uses the same fundamental technique as others skiing situations, just blended in different ways. A timed test for instructors is just one way of assessing whether instructors have those fundamental techniques developed to a high standard. I don't think it should be the only measure of an instructors technical proficiency, nor do I think it says anything about teaching skills. It is just one part of the qualification system that I think is appropriate for instructors. My other two caveats are that the current Eurotest is pitched at too high a level; and the suggestion for an age-related handicap system seems a sensible solution (as the speed test should be about technique, not strength or fitness).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| I don't think it should be the only measure of an instructors technical proficiency, nor do I think it says anything about teaching skills. |
Good, in that case we agree in part.
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little tiger, you, by your own admission, had lots of issues with leaning the basics. So I don't think you are typical of a person learning to ski. Teaching you to ski, going by what you've said in the past, was akin to a simply surgical procedure that developed some life threatening complications.
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| Tim Brown wrote: |
rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| I don't think it should be the only measure of an instructors technical proficiency, nor do I think it says anything about teaching skills. |
Good, in that case we agree in part. |
That's nice 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tim Brown, Yeah but I now ski at a reasonable level - not stuck in limbo land like the majority of skiers... So it is a proven that the instruction I had was a fair bit better than the average instruction being dished out is it not? Remember I'm not supposed to be able to ski at all 
I have had a number of instructors and coaches and trainers comment on the standard of the instruction I've received.... It should not be uncommon enough to get comment that a student has decent technical skills... That should be the norm... if instructors cannot develop basic skills in their students there is an issue and I say it is that we allow those with little technical understanding or ability to teach...
Your exact argument that "you don't need skills to teach beginners" is the problem... it leads to poor skill sets that are difficult to remove once they have been practised and reinforced... If you start with good skill sets you are only needing to build - not rebuild.
As I said - a simple easy race course like a Nastar course should be well within the ability of anyone who wishes to call themselves an instructor to ski at a reasonable level....
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FAQ
Out of the corner of my eye I can see 7 cups + some medallions which mention SL or GS on their plaques. And to answer the bit about mutually exclusive, no but off piste technique in a race course won't dump you on yor head but race technique off piste certainly will , as I have wittnessed with a well known BASI trainer. 
). I agree though that you'd not expect to see a short swing or jump turn in a race course (although sometimes extreme recovery measures aren't that different) 