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Clive Woodward to be new President of BASI

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he wouldn't manage a good shite Laughing
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Guvnor, Ian McGeechan, Jack Rowell, Mike Ruddock, Bob Dwyer, Rod Macqueen, Brian Lochure, Kitch Christie, Martin J - all similarly qualified - some more than others wink

He knows how to service a photocopy and fax machine too Very Happy

'I find it absolutely staggering that [Andrew] was given that [elite director's] job and was sitting behind Andy Robinson at Twickenham in recent weeks when he has never coached an international team and has no credibility at all.' - Clive Woodward - Guardian 11th Dec 2006

mmmmmm ......................
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Quote:

So, no suggestions for someone else to fill the post then? Oh, and no knowledge of how UK funding for Olympic disciplines actually works?

Yes, if you read up a little bit - Steve Redgrave. Ideal.

I'm not sure how the funding of elite British Olympic athletes is germane to this discussion as we were talking about SCW working as the President of BASI, and last time I looked ski instructing wasn't an olympic sport. If however barry is right then the funding of elite athletes could be quickly improved by diverting his £300k to their training budgets instead.

Quote:

I do not think BGA has put himself up for a job that he is not necessarily qualified to do and has not put himself forward as a sports and motivational guru

Thanks rayscoops, absolutely.
Took me six years to qualify for the job I do do, so I think I'll leave the motivational guru thing just for now
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from memory, an extract from the DVD I mentioned above:

Phone Rings in Eddie O Sullivan's room:

Eddie: "Hello?"
Clive: "Eddie, it's Sir Clive"
Eddie: "Oh hello sir"
Clive: "Eddie, just wanted to touch base, really appreciate your great work as always"
Eddie: "Thank you sir"
Clive: "I think we need to make some changes befor the second test Eddie, what would you say to going to a 4-4-2 system?"
Eddie: "sir?"
Clive: "also, let's play Dallaglio on saturday"
Eddie: "Lawerence got injured in the first game sir, he's gone home"
Clive: "roight, roight ok ya, well let's bring Johno in then"
Eddie: "Martin Johnson retired sir in 2003 after the World Cup, you were the coach of the winning team sir"
Clive: "roight, roight, ok Eddie, well let's stick a pin in it and we'll discuss tomorrow, once again thanks for your support. Night Eddie"
Eddie: "night sir"
Eddie (to himself): "this is a f*cking disaster"

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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barry, As you know the tongue in cheek "chasing the lions" was produced here in Ireland. You may not have been totally aware that there was a touch of politics involved in the decision to make CW manager. One that was hated here in Ireland, we all thought that it would go automaticallty to EO'S. Eddie is indeed a good coach, and in his day a fairly decent winger, not outstanding but as I have said in other threads you dont have to be a good player/practitioner to be a good coach. Jose Marino, Alex Fergusson, Arsenne Wenger et al.

Your last line showed that Eddie either did not have the cohunas to say it the his manager, believed it, or to resign. Eddie has done exceptionally well for the pool of players he has here, but he himself knows that he may never emulate the successes that CW has had. I hope the coming world cup will elevate Eddie to the position of great managers.

"Ian McGeechan, Jack Rowell, Mike Ruddock, Bob Dwyer, Rod Macqueen, Brian Lochure, Kitch Christie, Martin J - all similarly qualified - some more than others "
The above are indeed all extremly well qualified for leading sporting organisations. 300K as a salary is far too much for a part time job. You might be able to get Franz Klammer or evenBGA, to take it up, six years of education or many years on the World Cup circuit.

I am sure CW got the position on one criteria only, his high profile.
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Roy Hockley wrote:
barry, As you know the tongue in cheek "chasing the lions" was produced here in Ireland. You may not have been totally aware that there was a touch of politics involved in the decision to make CW manager. One that was hated here in Ireland, we all thought that it would go automaticallty to EO'S. Eddie is indeed a good coach, and in his day a fairly decent winger, not outstanding but as I have said in other threads you dont have to be a good player/practitioner to be a good coach. Jose Marino, Alex Fergusson, Arsenne Wenger et al.

Your last line showed that Eddie either did not have the cohunas to say it the his manager, believed it, or to resign. Eddie has done exceptionally well for the pool of players he has here, but he himself knows that he may never emulate the successes that CW has had. I hope the coming world cup will elevate Eddie to the position of great managers.

"Ian McGeechan, Jack Rowell, Mike Ruddock, Bob Dwyer, Rod Macqueen, Brian Lochure, Kitch Christie, Martin J - all similarly qualified - some more than others "
The above are indeed all extremly well qualified for leading sporting organisations. 300K as a salary is far too much for a part time job. You might be able to get Franz Klammer or evenBGA, to take it up, six years of education or many years on the World Cup circuit.

I am sure CW got the position on one criteria only, his high profile.


not too keen on Eddie either (he coached me in school out west), but a dam sight better than old Clive!

am a bit bored with this thread now, all the fun of takin the pisss out of Clive is gone and I'm shocked and ashamed that a couple of my brethren are defending him and not joining in the fun. The time's they are a changin.....

out
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barry, Sorry to hear that you are "out"!!
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Roy Hockley, CW may make a decent figure head, but be under no illusion, everything that he does is for his own self promotion and increasing of his own profile; his own guru status. he managed to place himself in a more prominent position as England coach than the highest profile (WC winning) player, when he started slipping he packed it in. As Lions coach he assmebled the great and the mighty of rugby as his 'management team', even pulling in 'Cambell the spin', he set up photo shoots with his arm on the shoulder of players without the players knowing, the Lions tour was about him and his techniques, not about rugby, he thought he was gigger than it. He then packed off to Southampton for a fast track rise as performance director, failed miserably and ran off with his tail between his legs (he did not join another lower club to prove himself, as other performance directors would do), next it was the BOA (after being snubbed for the elite director post for England rugby) where he now looks after the elite performance of nearly 40 athletic disciplines with 40 elite performance directors reporting to him, he know jack shite about it but hey, it makes him look good. Now he is off ot skiing too, and if that does not work out, what about speed way, or F1. The guy is a tosser
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Quote:

evenBGA, to take it up

Wouldn't get out of bed for £300k rolling eyes
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Who was the previous President? Does anybody know?
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rayscoops wrote:
The guy is a tosser
and you'd probably know best.

I was shown around the England training set-up he was responsible for at Pennyhill Park pre World Cup success. Talked to the staff etc. Exceptional. IMO he created the environment in which a fairly average team became world beaters. To be fair, no team really played amazingly well in Australia but England still walked off with the silverware... and that's the point.
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rayscoops, I agree that he is there as a figure head. He may just be doing it for his own self interest, so what. The problem is when someone with out any of his motivational / ability talent in any sport insult him. I just doubt whether those that have a discourtious opinion have any better to add. Try not to defend ignorant people, those that bully should be taken on.

I personally feel that many people could have coached the WC winning team and the team would have still won, that is not my point. It is that we do not need to gain the greater wisdom of those that insult a guy and are probably in their own lives "also rans".
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it's interesting that those who have direct experience of his work or who have actually heard the guy speak in person seem to have the positive things to say about him
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Arno wrote:
it's interesting that those who have direct experience of his work or who have actually heard the guy speak in person seem to have the positive things to say about him

What do the players in the WC winning squad think of him?
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rob@rar, i was just talking about people on this thread - can't comment on the WC winners
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rob@rar wrote:
What do the players in the WC winning squad think of him?


What Martin Johnson says about him in an extract from a long interview with MJ in todays Sunday Times. Sums up SCW, so people think that Woodward actually coached? Does Sir Alex, Wenger, no, they manage and set the vision.

Quote:
Woodward retired after the 2004 summer tour and with him the vision of England as a rugby super power dissipated. In the old days, Johnson often seemed underwhelmed by some of Clive’s ideas but he knew that it was the head coach who created the big picture. “We were working out how to win this five-man lineout, or how to deal with South Africa’s lineout defence, and Clive was constantly reminding us of the overall plan.

“He was manager more than coach, like the chief executive whose primary concern was the big picture. I worked in a bank once, the CEO didn’t need to come in and show me how to count money – actually, I wasn’t allowed to touch the money. Clive did get involved in tactics and match preparation, but he was the guy who kept us on the right path. Once he went, the vision went with him.”
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gwaelod, thanks. Sounds like an approach he should take in his dealings with BASI.
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Clive won the Rugby World Cup with a lucky, in a sense that England were lucky to be gifted the opportunity, kick in the last second. Read his book and he gives the impression what it was all planned that way. He'll be claiming to be the Son of God next.
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Tim Brown wrote:
Clive won the Rugby World Cup with a lucky, in a sense that England were lucky to be gifted the opportunity, kick in the last second. Read his book and he gives the impression what it was all planned that way. He'll be claiming to be the Son of God next.


All winners in all sports are very, very lucky. Much luckier than second or 3rd wouldn't you agree Puzzled

Maybe the BASI should engage the manager of the team that come 4th or 5th that year Puzzled
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gwaelod, Clive thinks he's fantastic. He thought he could walk on water, after the World Cup. Southampton FC supports will doubtless disagree with him. He's probably found his level with BASI, though.

After he's bombed with BASI, he might like to take over at my Tesco's Local, they need a new manager about every 6 months or so.
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Tim Brown wrote:
gwaelod, Clive thinks he's fantastic. He thought he could walk on water, after the World Cup. Southampton FC supports will doubtless disagree with him. He's probably found his level with BASI, though.

After he's bombed with BASI, he might like to take over at my Tesco's Local, they need a new manager about every 6 months or so.


You seem to think you are fantastic to. He is just a world cup medal winning fantastic man.Very Happy
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gwaelod, spoken like a true rugby fan (union, of course, old boy). That great 'national' sport, played in England by people who live in the M4 corridor. If he'd won the FIFA World Cup, that would have been something to shut about.
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Tim Brown wrote:
gwaelod, spoken like a true rugby fan (union, of course, old boy). That great 'national' sport, played in England by people who live in the M4 corridor. If he'd won the FIFA World Cup, that would have been something to shut about.


Absolutely and I am sure if you ever won anything you to could shout about it and accept criticism from armchair pundits. Very Happy
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gwaelod, I read that article too, I think the quote was from the book jointly hosted by ....err.......... Woodward, Johnson, Wilkinson and Dalaglio (spelling?). Interesting that Johno politely states that Woodward was not actually the coach but more like a manager. Some other interesting quotes too Very Happy
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Tim Brown,
Quote:

After he's bombed with BASI, he might like to take over at my Tesco's Local, they need a new manager about every 6 months or so.



Is it the customer's they have to deal with I wonder wink Toofy Grin
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rayscoops wrote:
gwaelod, I read that article too, I think the quote was from the book jointly hosted by ....err.......... Woodward, Johnson, Wilkinson and Dalaglio (spelling?). Interesting that Johno politely states that Woodward was not actually the coach but more like a manager. Some other interesting quotes too Very Happy


No quite the context of what was said. Yes the interviewer met him at the launch of a book but the interview wasn't about the book it was about MJ persoanally. In the next line of the article MJ was highly critical of how the English team are treated in respect to training facilities so I don't think he was holding back.

As I said from my first comment in the this thread. In no way do I beleive that SCW was a coach. He even says himself he was the manager, the overall strategy maker. Day to days things he delegated to his coaching staff.
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gwaelod, the interview largely related to what Johno thinks about England rugby, both now and when he was playing for England. I think we are in general agreement but i simply believe that Woodward is given too much credit for the WC success, he managed the overall England set-up and should have credit for that, but was not the main tactician that was the core reason for success of England winning the WC. Later in the interview Johno says that the 'management' were too focused on the team at that point in time rather than the bigger picture of making England a world force in rugby, and that someone ourside the immediate management staff should have recognised this, which I find strange becasue that is exactly what Woodward should have been doing. I do not believe that his success necessarily makes him qualified for 'performance director' of UK athletics or skiing. It is interesting that when the core of the WC team retired Woodward was not able to maintain the level of performance as 'overall stratedy maker', suggesting that perhaps the players had something to do with the WC success.
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Very true, he had an outstanding TEAM. He managed the TEAM that won. England in my mind did not play well in any game during the World Cup, certainly not as good as they had played in the run up to the competition. As president of BASI I am sure he will promote his involvement in the sport and this may benefit the lower echelons in the sport, (the punter!).
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Roy Hockley, Actually I think he is more suited to the skiing position that the athletics position. the only way the profile of skiing can go is up, with or without him, but atleast he will get some sports pages column inches for skiing that perhaps it does not get now. If that is the intention then it is a good appointment I suppose, but if his remit is too restructure British skiing then I am not so sure.
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rayscoops, Roy Hockley,

I have seen SCW present on his whole management philosphy and the world cup win. In fairness to him he talks about how he views a team and their strenghts in a pyramid format with each person having different strenghts that put them in different parts of the pyramid. (Its a bit heavy but bear with me...)

At the top of the pyramid are the unique guys. Your MJ's etc.... He said for any 15 man team to be the the best you need at least 3 men in the top. When they won the world cup he happily admits openly that as the manager he was in the unique position of having 6 of his 15 in the top of the pyramid.

We only see a certain element of him in the paper but when he does talk abou the team a lot when presenting not just him (though his ego does follow him into the room Very Happy Very Happy )
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gwaelod, I've seen that talk too and was pretty impressed. As you say, it's all about maximising the potential of the individuals and the team. Like you say, there is a bit of ego but you don't get to where he is without a bit of confidence in your own abilities
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gwaelod wrote:
(though his ego does follow him into the room Very Happy Very Happy )


Most well known people I've met have huge egos. It's seen as a weakness by most but it is actually what helped them to the top. Importantly, such egotists are not afraid of going for it and can handle public scrutiny. Getting back to the main theme, it'll do BASI no harm whatsoever to have a high profile sporting knight as a figurehead and I suspect it's just one part of an overall overhaul. BASI is a fair sized business these days akin to a medium sized tour operator and getting bigger. They'll need strong management teams for the future and SCW has the organisational credentials necessary, the sporting and media contacts and other skilss we can't see.
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gwaelod, I have not seen him talk but from what you say he seems to have taken the idea that you need five or six world class players to win a world cup - same applies for football, hockey, cricket etc., and generated a way of describing that in techno-babble. The football commentators/pundits have been saying this for thirty years - ''we only really have two/three world class players and it is not enought to win the world cup, you need six world class players' - it is not something new. I am sure he has loads of other theories too. however athletics and skiing disciplines are not team sports so different ideals may apply,

I have no problems with huge egos, the Chelsea manager has the biggest one of all, he has been successful in footy (but no WC), but I do not think even his ego is so large that he would feel qualified enough to take on the job of managing the Portugal olympic team - well ....... may be not Very Happy
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rayscoops, BASI does not run competitive skiing in this country, it just trains instructors.
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rayscoops wrote:
gwaelod, I have not seen him talk but from what you say he seems to have taken the idea that you need five or six world class players to win a world cup


Ray its interesting to listen to him talk because the top of the pyramid people are not necessarily the best players they are leaders. Sometimes they cross over (and yes some of it is pyscho babble) but he did name the 6 players (can't remember them) but in a team sport he needed leaders not just 15 of the best players.

I suppose an example of this in football is where some people have tried to buy the best players to win but it doesn't always work?

Could one of the reasonss SCW failed in football is that his methodolgy of working is his and his alone, he demands complete loyalty and control. Maybe he didn't realise that footballers are mostly stupid (sorry its true) and that they are pyhsical assets to a financial organisation and it they do what they want quite often and don't care for authority?
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gwaelod, I think this is the reason that I find him annoying Very Happy
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gwaelod wrote:


Could one of the reasonss SCW failed in football is that his methodolgy of working is his and his alone, he demands complete loyalty and control. Maybe he didn't realise that footballers are mostly stupid (sorry its true)


And most rugby players are hurrays. You see the slight problem? Don't blame the soccer players, they get managed by people their whole careers. Clive should have stuck to playing with odd shaped balls.
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rayscoops, If you read Johnson's autobiography (an earlier book) his view on SCW as a manager is the same. He also credits SCW with bringing a level of professionalism to English rugby never seen before by focusing on fitness, tactics etc - the bigger picture. Perhaps he was ineffective in the round ball game as it is more advanced in these areas and he was unable to add anything new. At the end of the day, who knows what goes on behind the scenes.

Going by the comments and interest in this thread, he's probably worth his salary in gaining publicity for BASI alone.
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gwaelod wrote:
Could one of the reasonss SCW failed in football is that his methodolgy of working is his and his alone, he demands complete loyalty and control?

Doesn't that other managerial knight, from the Manchester area, demand the same? wink
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laundryman, perhaps SCW was unable to grasp the hairdryer technique!
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