 Poster: A snowHead
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OK I know both of these subjects have been oft discussed but I've just been reading a link that spyderjon posted in the self arrest thread.
My understanding is that people prefer to ski without pole straps for two main reasons - 1) to prevent skier's thumb in the event of a fall and 2) to prevent being speared / or having your arms dragged around in the event of an avalanche. I've never been convinced by 1), providing that you hold the strap properly, but can see the sense in 2)
I then read the following on epicski#
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si
Bob, how do you reconcile that with not using pole straps? Without straps on, I would guess that most people who took a hard fall would lose their poles? I've had falls where I lost both poles even with straps on (I know I've probably told you my stale stories more than once!).
Hi, Si.
If you read back through some of my posts in all of the straps/strapless debates, you'll find that I only wear my pole straps in two situations:
One is when I'm racing.
The other is when I'm about to ski something that I know is steep enough, slick enough, and exposed enough that I want to have *something* to help me slow down if things go bad.
I'll add here (because it ties back in with some of the later posts in this thread) that there are DEFINITELY times when I do this inbounds. It's not unusual here at Jackson Hole for us to get sunny, cold, high-pressure periods that set up very fast sliding conditions inbounds. We have many, many inbounds chutes where an unarrested slide can result in a fatality. As a morbid fact, several X more people have died at this ski area by sliding into obstructions than have ever been killed in avalanches. I'm very confident that a pole self-arrest could have saved many of those lives.
Which confuses the issue a bit, in that the guy is suggesting that he puts his pole straps on when he is skiing anything that is steep and exposed and where a fall could be fatal - which is also the terrain where an avalanche is a risk.
So to summarise, ski without your straps unless you are skiing something where you may need to self arrest to prevent serious injury in the event of a fall 
Any thoughts / advice?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not convinced by this on two levels:
1. I doubt very much that poles are particularly effective as tools for self arrest on hard/icy snow anyway. Certainly less effective than the edges of your skis if you can flip yourself round and get them to purchase.
2. having your wrists in the straps will slow down signficantly your ability to dig the tips of the poles into the snow. you first need to get your wrists out of the straps which could be quite a fiddle if you have taken a fall. during this time you will be accellerating down the slope. the general consensus in mountaineering is that you carry your ice axe in your hand without using a wrist loop precisely so that you can get the axe in the right position asap with no tangling of the loop. loops are really only "necessary" for ice climbing (actually they're strictly necessary but weaklings like me like something to hang off)
edit: someone might say, "what if I drop my poles/ice axe in a fall." The answer is, "make damn sure you don't if you want to use them to self arrest"
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Arno, wrt carrying an ice axe, using the wrist loop wouldn't have any effect as you would be carrying the axe the same way you would be holding it to arrest with a loop or not. However, having the loop round your wrist meks it hard to change the hand you have the axe in when ascending a slope in a zig-zag. As far as hanging in them goes: me too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
I'm not convinced by this on two levels:
1. I doubt very much that poles are particularly effective as tools for self arrest on hard/icy snow anyway. Certainly less effective than the edges of your skis if you can flip yourself round and get them to purchase.
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Which brings up the point that guides should get you to tighten your bindings before skiing something where the consequences of losing your skis might be serious. And they don't always do that.
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| Arno wrote: |
I'm not convinced by this on two levels:
1. I doubt very much that poles are particularly effective as tools for self arrest on hard/icy snow anyway. Certainly less effective than the edges of your skis if you can flip yourself round and get them to purchase.
2. having your wrists in the straps will slow down signficantly your ability to dig the tips of the poles into the snow. you first need to get your wrists out of the straps which could be quite a fiddle if you have taken a fall. during this time you will be accellerating down the slope. |
Arno
1. Bob Peter's pics of himself doing a 'pole' self arrest on a 38 degree slope would suggest otherwise. His view was that with a ski or boot arrest was that it was too easy to start yourself cartwheeling.
2. Can't see why you'd need to get your wrists out of the straps, as can be seen in Bob's pic.
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| BGA wrote: |
| ......Which confuses the issue a bit, in that the guy is suggesting that he puts his pole straps on when he is skiing anything that is steep and exposed and where a fall could be fatal - which is also the terrain where an avalanche is a risk..... |
BGA, I suppose the avi risk is a lot less when skiing in-bounds in the US as the terrain is avi controlled etc. I think Bob's also thinking more of hardpack conditions were the risk of a faller sliding long & fast is way greater than in powder.
I've always been taught to have my pole straps quite tight when on steeps as the straps give addtional weight support when pole planting & so that poles won't be lost during a spill to enable a pole self arrest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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spyderjon, fair point, but I can't see why you wouldn't just stand up once you're in that position. if you're going so fast that doing that risks putting you into a ragdoll i really don't think that a pole self arrest will work
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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snowball, How many ? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As always, you may have to think the consequences of these actions through in regard to the particular slope you are on, IMV. If the big risk is a slide then you might want to ditch the straps, if it is a fall or loss of pole, then you might deal with that differently. My general thinking is straps out for avi and straps on for a fall. It then depends how far you think you might go etc etc etc ... No hard and fast rule for me.
It is then same for a harness..when do you put it on..do you even carry one..? and rope...!!!
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| Quote: |
I've always been taught to have my pole straps quite tight when on steeps as the straps give addtional weight support when pole planting & so that poles won't be lost during a spill to enable a pole self arrest.
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Me too, probably by the same person 
Not sure about a guide telling me to crank up the bindings at the top of a steep pitch - logistically a bit tricky to begin with! I think I prefer the guide to tell me to go slow and side slip until the exposed part is negotiated
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You know it makes sense.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Which brings up the point that guides should get you to tighten your bindings before skiing something where the consequences of losing your skis might be serious. And they don't always do that. |
I don't think I have ever had a guide ask a group, or a group member to tighten bindings except where a skier's bindings have obviously been releasing when they should not have been. Maybe a guide giving advice at other times would be putting himself at risk.. Bindings not tight enough - and the skier comes adrift on steep ground? The guide could be liable. Skier falls and binding does not release causing injury? The guide could be liable. I've never had binding-setting advice on the gnarliest terrain, though I would have appreciated it.
Seems odd to be discussing this when the temperature here is 35 degrees!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Are pole-straps really any substitute for handcuffs in self-arrest?
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles,
I'll jack my bindings up a din or so if I think the situation warrants it. They should be up from the norm anyway if you are skiing in deep stuff. A pre-release can be as bad anyway, and a lost ski..well....!!!!
A skier can't look to the guide to tie their shoelaces as it were, the skier should take a bit of responsibilty themselves. They should know what roughly to expect, be it a scramble over rocks. You might even have to help the guide out with rope-work over glaciated terrain or something. I don't say you have to know all these things but you shouldn't be oblivious to it either. The skier has to take somthing to the party as well, even something like the skills of a rock solid side-slip.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Good point, JT.
Guides are not gods. They are fallable. I've been on guided (non-skiing) trips when the guide made a mistake that nearly stranded the group! Well, the condition was 'beyond normal'! Hopefully it doesn't happen often, but it CAN.
I now look onto guides to provide local knowledge and experience. Nothing more, unless it's a guiding + instruction kind of trip.
The client really should be self-sufficient enough to do the route without the guide had the route been "marked". And that includes having the tool and skill for self-rescue. One way to think of it is, "what happen if the guide got injured?" Will the clients die with the guide because they can't figure out how to get out on their own?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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i personally would only ski with straps off if skiing though trees. Getting a pole tangled up in some tree branches wouldnt be good.
I agree with Spyderjon
| Quote: |
I've always been taught to have my pole straps quite tight when on steeps as the straps give addtional weight support when pole planting & so that poles won't be lost during a spill to enable a pole self arrest.
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Not sure i agree with "straps off if worried about a slide". If you are the least bit concerned about avalanche get the h**l out of the situation and back onto safe terrain.
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h**l = hill
I agree.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="BGA"]
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Not sure about a guide telling me to crank up the bindings at the top of a steep pitch - logistically a bit tricky to begin with! I think I prefer the guide to tell me to go slow and side slip until the exposed part is negotiated |
I was thinking of really big steep slopes like the North face of Bellecote rather than an exposed patch. And the time that the boot arrest saved me we were just above a 300 metre cliff. If the guide hadn't caught my ski in mid air as it went past him I would have been truly buggered.
Hands or elbows? Well I only took my chest an inch or two off the snow. I suppose it must have been hands.
abc I know that guides have more snow craft than I do. I was once traversing a slope with a group and stopped a few yards above them. The guide called to me that the patch of snow just in front of me (which looked much like all the rest to me) might go but it would be OK to ski it if I wanted. But I should wait till they had crossed its path down.
So I waited a moment then skied on and the patch of snow about 6ft accross went, taking me a few yards down a slight chute below. I retrieved my skis with the help of the guide and skied on. That was impressive. He knew that that patch would go and none of the rest and he knew it wouldn't be dangerous if it did.
..............2000 
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| Quote: |
I would have been truly buggered.
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Is that included in the fee for guiding or extra?
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snowball, I don't think I'd ever want to be on a 50 degree slope with a 300m cliff below it 
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bga, I think it's all part of the service (its a hard life being a guide).
Edit: spyderjon Possibly we shouldn't have been taken there - but given we were we should have been told to tighten our bindings first.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 17-07-07 11:11; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There is even an argument for doing a few things unguided so you make your little mistakes yourself. Make sure they are litle though and not too expensive.
Even safety first and prudence is a good lesson.
Tough call...but just don't be an oblivious idiot and build up some awareness yourself
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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From the EpicSki post alluded to in another thread, the following quote about a pole self arrest that saved a life.....
| Quote: |
In the case of my slide, I cartwheeled half the chute, losing both skis and breaking the dynafit safty straps. A friend said I picked up speed like I had just pointed them down.... a cartwheeling body has little friction.
About 2/3 of the way to the big splat I managed to slide a bit and that was when I was able to grab a pole shaft and do a bit of an arrest. I didn't have the grip in the other hand, but the strap was still on my wrist. I didn't grab it close enough to the basket to get the best arrest, but I had it low enough that even though the pole bent, I slowed down a lot and my head was uphill when I hit the rocks.
I'm probably typing this because of my straps, the stiff black diamond pole, and an instructor years ago who made me practice upside down and tumbling self arrest over and over and over. |
As I may have mentioned before, I do ski with my straps tight, incl. heli skiing and backcountry.
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Black Diamond do carbon poles with arresters... which might have a place in some people's repertoire. They seem well thought out but whether you'd want them all the time.....but then you could probabl interchange them with the standard carbons fliklocks that I have
The powder baskets have little grip arrangements too
http://www.bdel.com/gear/fl_whippet.php
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight, well said and i am sure i read on one the Epic threads an Instructor that was quoted saying that several times as many people are killed or seriously injured in falls as opposed to avalanches in the US. If you have straps off, i cant imagine you will hold onto your poles if sliding or cartwheeling down the slope making a self arrest much harder to do...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Er.... I thought ice axes were for self arrest - not ski poles !
I never ski with my pole straps in. If i rag doll then last thing I want is 2 ski poles banging about my head.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Haggis_Trap, if you are "rag dolling" i would think the least of your worries is a ski pole attached to your wrist. Do you use a helmet?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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> Do you use a helmet?
Bought helmet couple of years ago - but dont like it, or wear it much. It started to annoy me on the sunny days.
The secret to avoiding potentially fatal slide's is not to fall in silly places....
Those photos of the self arrest using ski pole look well suspect, and not a technique you want to rely on.
If its a 50 degree slope, and your in doubt, then get the ice axe out.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 17-07-07 22:44; edited 3 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
It started to annoy me on the sunny days.
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snap
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I should wear a helmet.... I do on the MTB bike.
But for some reason not when skiing...
Which there is no logical explantion for !
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As a 'normal' skier who has fallen on a few steep (probably 35-45) slopes....
I've not specially had the opportunity to use my poles to arrest. I've used my arms to stop tumbles and when I first had a long slide on my back (no skis by then) I just *knew* that digging my heels in would have been a bad idea (I remember having an image of standing up *really* fast and then headbutting the snow as I went face down again - ow!). So I got on my front and got my toe tips in. Because it was just a slide, I had time to think and respond.
I've never been hurt by a flailing pole (apart from *that* incident which doesn't count) (oh, clarify .... a flailing pole *of mine*) (double clarify, I wear a ventilated helmet)
Tumbling on steep bumps is way harder to control since you leave the ground a fair bit (AMF at ESA last year... quick descent though). That was really disorienting and I was lucky to miss the rocks.
I've always been grateful to have poles at the end of a slide/fall - I vote straps (at the level I ski...)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have been through this debate so often and I don't think there si a right or wrong answer. In some emergencies, using straps help and in others, they hinder. Unfortunately, you never know which you are going to have!.
However, the one thing I do disagree with is the tightening of the bindings, except in one situation. The only time to tighten your bindings to the max is when youa re really in an "if you fall, you die" situation. These really are very, very few indeed. If you are skiing in a situation where if you fall, you might die if you don't react or stop quickly, I believe that winding your bindings up will reduce your chances of surviving. The problem is that extreme pain numbs the mind. Your reactin times go down and your ability to think clearly is badly effected. In the situation Snowball described, if his binding was wound up so tight the ski did not come off, he might have done a serious injury and that could have killed him. I would much rather try a self arrest with no ski than with a broken leg or ripped ACL!.
The challenge is to get your bindings set up right for you. IMO, it's not just about DIN settings but also about your ski style. I remember Ali Ross always skiing on a DIN setting of 3! Your ski style really does effect it a lot, with 2 skiers of the same size and ability needing different settings. I am totally confident that if I wound my bindings any more, I would injure myself. You won't find me going any tighter.
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| SimonN wrote: |
In the situation Snowball described, if his binding was wound up so tight the ski did not come off, he might have done a serious injury and that could have killed him. I would much rather try a self arrest with no ski than with a broken leg or ripped ACL!.
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I don't agree. We were, of course, going very slowly and carefully down this first 200metres above the cliff - mostly side slipping with only a couple of turns. The back end of my skis were on a steeper bit of slope than the fronts and simply slid away when I tried to check myself, leaving me for a moment looking straight up the slope (and obviously fell over backwards on a slope that steep, and both skis came off).
The last time I skied one of the steeper ways down the Bellecote North face (but not the previous time) - and this WAS proper skiing - we WERE told to tighten our bindings.
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