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British mountain guide arrested for guiding British cyclists in France

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Lesgets
Not strictly about skiing, but the story is unfolding in the French ski resorts of Morzine and the Portes du Soleil. French authorities in the area have decided to crack down on non-French qualified mountain bike guides, a move that could impact on the local economy and so on the winter season too. At the end of last week, a long established British mountain bike specialist in the area was arrested while out guiding a group of British guests. Although he was later released without charge, the owner of the company he was working for (Endless Ride) was then taken into custody and charged with “guiding mountain bikers in France without the appropriate French qualification”.
...It seems that French guides, disgruntled by a British company that had been touting for business locally, alerted the authorities. However, Endless Ride owner, Gareth Jeffries, has said that his company does not compete with local business, rather brings in its own guests and guides them as part of a holiday package. These guests then spend money in the area, adding to the local economy.

As with all reputable British mountain bike companies operating in France, the guides at Endless Ride all hold the Scottish Mountain Bike leader Award (SMBLA). Current European Community directives exist that govern the recognition of diplomas within the European Union, and under these Directives (even if you do not hold the appropriate national diploma), “the authorities of the host Member State must authorise you to pursue a profession on its territory, if you have the required diploma from your country of origin in order to pursue that profession”.

However, it seems the French authorities have decided not to accept these regulations and are refusing to acknowledge the SMBLA as an acceptable qualification with which to guide clients. From now on, companies who employ guides without the appropriate French qualification risk being charged under French law.

It is all rather rings a bell with the current situation for non-French qualified ski instructors and ski guides in France.

For more information see:
http://www.tignesnet.com/whats_new_article.php?id_whats_new=2432&id_back=1


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 17-07-07 13:44; edited 1 time in total
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Is it true that to become a French bike guide that you have to finish the Tour de France within 1 minute of the winner? Laughing
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In the van son.
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Wear The Fox Hat wrote:
Is it true that to become a French bike guide that you have to finish the Tour de France within 1 minute of the winner? Laughing

If that was the case there would be no French nationals doing the guiding.
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Wear The Fox Hat, yes, but the british stages dont actually count towards that Laughing
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AFAIKS to mountain bike guide in France for money you either need to be a UIAGM or an IML. The French authorities want to make sure you are tax registered and have liability insurance. The IML award would seem like a reasonable requirement for mountain bike guiding in the Alps or Pyrenees to me.

Some contradictions in the article

Quote:
He goes on to say that “Endless Ride and the like do not do this […compete with local business] - we bring in our own guests and guide them as part of a package.
....

Quote:
many companies have ceased offering their accompanied riding services to their guests. In the case of Endless Ride and Flow, they are instead hiring a local guide for 2 days a week


so obviously they are taking work away from properly qualified guides.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 17-07-07 15:23; edited 1 time in total
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Quote:

However, it seems the French authorities have decided not to accept these regulations

Sounds like the french being french basically. They've always cherry-picked the parts of euro law that suit them and ignored the rest. I can't understand why we Brits don't do the same!
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the ice perv wrote:
Quote:

However, it seems the French authorities have decided not to accept these regulations

Sounds like the french being french basically. They've always cherry-picked the parts of euro law that suit them and ignored the rest. I can't understand why we Brits don't do the same!


In this case I can't agree. The IML have worked with equivalent bodies to establish a standard for mountain leadership... this will protect the 2500 British qualified IMLs as well.
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To what degree are these guys "guiding"? In the day, many years ago, I was a rep/guide for a small operator. At no stage would I even have dreamed of needing a qualification as all I ever did was show people round the PDS pistes (and restaurants). No off piste, no closed runs, no instruction.

So if all the UK folks are doing is showing people around marked and maintained trails, it hardly seems to merit the requirement to understand avalanche forecasting nor to negotiate "fixed equipment". I don't think my DaKine rucsac has the right straps to attach a mountain bike anyway.

While, Davidof, I can see your point - it does sound rather like the French being somewhat protectionist. Either this was a problem last year, in which case surely the Commune of Morzine-Avoriaz was in danger of a liability suit should someone hurt themselves, or it wasn't.
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davidof wrote:


so obviously they are taking work away from properly qualified guides.


You are the first person to ask for most things mountain related here....but how can you state that if they have the Scottish qualification.
Do you know if it sold over the internet or strictly enforced by rigerous examination and practical tests.

Sorry, but this smack of the usual French selective application of EU rules. Just another (small) example of the sort of thing that really p!sses off the rest of the EU.
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David Murdoch wrote:
So if all the UK folks are doing is showing people around marked and maintained trails, it hardly seems to merit the requirement to understand avalanche forecasting nor to negotiate "fixed equipment". I don't think my DaKine rucsac has the right straps to attach a mountain bike anyway.


Look I don't want to defend the French but at the moment all the European countries + Switzerland have agreed on a standard for professional non-glacial mountain leading. Does it matter if people are negociating trails on a bike or on foot? IML's are pretty much leading walking groups in summer on marked trails although they can lead snowshoers on low angled terrain. The core curriculum seems like a reasonable basis for leading mountain bike groups in the mountains along with some additional MTB qualification.

The reason these things don't get prosecuted is that the authorities generally have better things to do. They are not very proactive. I guess someone who had gone through the appropriate qualification process complained. The IML is not exactly difficult to obtain.

These arguments go round in circles. Why both having recognized qualifications for anything? Why shouldn't I be able to practise medicine in the Uk with my University of the Upper Volta medical degree. Surely the BMA are just some bunch of protectionists preserving high salaries for their members?
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davidof, of course they (the BMA) are. After all, you know how surgeons pass on knowledge?...

"Watch one, do one, teach one."

But back to the argument. Why is this qualification required at all. If I want to go for a walk in the woods, I equip myself with the required experience (in my case starting with being a boy scout) and head off. If I want to go somewhere a bit more tricky, glaciated, requiring skills I don't have, I hire a guide. The IML seems (without doing anything more than briefly looking at the website) to be somewhere in between...I'm not sure I see where it fits.

Although, to argue against myself, is it pitched a bit like the mountain leaders course that teachers when I was a boy had to have to be in charge of a bus load of kids heading up to Glencoe? In which case, were I to be a parent I can see the point.

I still am not entirely sure I quite agree in the Morzine case. Given that it (IML) isn't that hard to acquire, why should I pay someone a decent wage to show me around. It's a different matter if it's a 5 year or 7 year vocational training. Give me a map and I'll find the way myself (or pick a suitably experienced mate to go with me).

Anyway, You don't need to defend the French, they're generally good enough at roadblocking the channel ports themselves Twisted Evil

But please don't let us get into an argument about it...I think this one requires face to face discussion and a goodly quantity of fine french ale/wine or cidre to resolve wink
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davidof, what's wrong with the Scottish Mountain Bike Leader Award? Is it just that it isn't one which has been included in the standard? All EU doctors can have their qualifications recognised or equivocated.
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Quote:

Why both having recognized qualifications for anything? Why shouldn't I be able to practise medicine in the Uk with my University of the Upper Volta medical degree

If you are a member of the EU you can practise medicine (and dentistry) on the basis of your qualification from your home country. Not so from outside the EU. The problem in this case seems to be that the Endless Ride guides have a qualification which under EU law should entitle them to pursue their profession throughout the EU but the French have decided to ignore this and insist on their own qualification. Either it's one law for all EU countries or it isn't. The French do seem to be quite good at this
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David Murdoch, like you'd have your medical care delivered by someone with a degree from the Uni of Upper Volta. It's bad enough for you lot that the UK equivocates qualifications from the EU.
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slikedges wrote:
davidof, what's wrong with the Scottish Mountain Bike Leader Award? Is it just that it isn't one which has been included in the standard? All EU doctors can have their qualifications recognised or equivocated.


I don't know that there is anything at all wrong with it. It is just not on its own the recognized professional award for leading groups in the mountains in France that's all. It doesn't seem to be a professional qualification but a club group qualification.
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Quote:

If you are a member of the EU you can practise medicine (and dentistry) on the basis of your qualification from your home country

In theory... in practice its much harder to achieve so I have heard from colleagues. Barriers from Professional organisations, the Mairie crop up all the time.
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Plus ça change. rolling eyes
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Martin Nicholas, precisely my point, free movement of labour across the EU, unless it's in France
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Martin Nicholas, I can easily believe you're right - unless things have changed I was under the belief that fully qualified UK medics still had to sit an equivalent of the "equivalence" (i.e. final med exams again, but in French) and of course a timed appendicectomy (the speed test).

Sorry, that last bit was a joke - there isn't really a surgical speed test ...

slikedges, Isn't that often the case in the UK these days? Twisted Evil
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Martin Nicholas, are you referring to France? There's no barrier in the UK as evidenced by the many European doctors working here.

David Murdoch, he says, hastily side-stepping whether or not he'd like the BMA [sic] to vet qualifications obtained in the Upper Volta
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My 2c worth.

The biggest obstacle IMHO is the use of the term 'guide'.

Too many individuals and companies offer 'guiding' in whatever guise - ski, snowboard, bike, foot - when they should be using a more appropriate word - 'teaching', 'escorting' etc.

I'm a ski instructor and I 'instruct' or 'teach' people to ski. I don't guide.

And if a certified guide who wasn't a certified instructor in a particular discipline offered 'instruction' or 'teaching' then that would wee wee me off too.
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Regarding the Scottish MTB exam, the equivalance is probably the FFCAM MTB leader exam:-

http://www.ffcam.fr/telecharger.php?le_rep_fichier=r4&le_fichier=20021712889700076.pdf

70 hours training + 2 days first aid training which is accepted by clubs (and their insurers) to lead groups voluntarily. When you consider that 2/3rds of call outs for the rescue services are for walkers and mountain bikers in the Alps you can maybe understand the need for a comprehensive training in mountaincraft for leading any kind of group in the high mountains.

Are people sayiing that there is no government control in the UK as to who can lead groups in the mountains for remuneration?
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davidof, unfortunately that is the case. there is no law in the UK that states that an individual needs to be qualified to take paying clients in to the British mountains in summer or winter for any activity. If you got injured by hiring someone incompetent, then I guess you could bring a claim against them. In France and the Alpine states you are breaking a criminal law when being paid if not suitably qualified.
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elbrus wrote:
davidof, unfortunately that is the case. there is no law in the UK that states that an individual needs to be qualified to take paying clients in to the British mountains in summer or winter for any activity.


Looking at the regulations it seems the primary concern in the UK wrt to guiding and leading are paedophiles and in the rest of Europe, competence.
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elbrus wrote:
davidof, unfortunately that is the case. there is no law in the UK that states that an individual needs to be qualified to take paying clients in to the British mountains in summer or winter for any activity.

It's difficult to see how the fabric of society can be long maintained. rolling eyes
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davidof, you present a very clear and well researched arguement as usual, well done. Why is it every time some UK company flaunts the local rules in France the French are immediately accused of "protectionism"? According to Davidof all the French mountain bike guides who guide for money must have the IML or UIAGM, whats wrong with the French maintaining high safety standards given that 2/3's of rescue call outs are for walkers and mountain bikers?

If the SMBLA award is equivalent to an IML i would cry foul as well but having a quick look at the IML site to qualify for an IML award you need:

Complete the Mountain Leader Award (Summer)
20 summer international quality mountain days
20 winter quality mountain days (UK or overseas)

THis sounds to me a lot higher level of qualification than the Scottish one.

If as Davidof states one is required to have an IML or high mountain guide certificate to guide for money in France so be it, get on with getting your license or dont cry when you get caught out as a cowboy.
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Are we not talking about "guides" who predominantly take guests around marked and lift served terrain in the PdS? Seems to me that most serious mountain bikers are more than capable of taking their own field repair and medi kits so I's guess the main value of a guide is someone who knows their way around. I would perhaps naively think a UIAGM guide is overkill for this as I seem to have managed it myself on both skis and bike without intensive training. Given the choice of paying for a French guide or not taking one I'd guess a lot of British punters would feel the same.
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Quote:

I would perhaps naively think a UIAGM guide is overkill for this


Me too but so is having to have an ISTD to teach beginners how to ski...

If you want to hire a guide in France at least you know you are getting someone qualified. Paying is the key word, if you dont feel the need to have a guide you can always explore on your own as you say but if you are parting with hard earned cash you should feel safe in the knowledge that your guide is highly qualified, not sort of nearly qualified with a dubious lower foreign certificate.
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Good luck to the French. They are rubbish at real war, but they sure know how to fight an economic battle by hook or by crook.
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Quote:

They are rubbish at real war


Like Iraq? wink
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I do recognise the idea that to show people around a few trails within a ski resort is not the same as taking a group on some trans-mountain epic. A few things surprised me about the story though. Unlike ski instructor exams where the test technique and eurotest have little to do with instructing skiers and a lot to do with excluding people who have not grown up in a ski resort and done competition from a young age the IML is something that has been agreed upon between the alpine nations + Britain and is a level playing field. The UK IML syllabus is actually a bit easier than the one the French have to follow from what I can see.

Now I have no particular interest in guiding of any sort but I know that to lead groups for money in France you need at least the IML and I would have thought that businesses would check out the local regulations first (maybe they did and they were told that the scottish mtb exam was ok... if so I hope they got that in writing from the mairie with a rubber stamp). What had really surprised me is that the French had let this situation go on so long with no action.

However it does seem to me that a compromise might be in order whereby groups can be taken around a few trails defined by the tourist board by the MTB group leaders who are paid by the mtb companies. I don't know if the law will allow this though.
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skimottaret wrote:
Quote:

They are rubbish at real war


Like Iraq? wink



Gulf War Part 2 was a success for the Allies. A tiny army swept through in weeks.

It is the post-war planning that has been sub-optimal.
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I think the UK IML is actually a reasonable professional level that would take an individual some time to get. Candidates need to:

Pass the UK summer ML (that's two courses training and assessment with logged hours)
Attend the winter ML training (that's another weeks course in the scottish mountains during winter)

Gain all the UK and European days of experience.

Then take the IML training and assessment in Europe (another week at least)

I estimate this is going to take someone a couple of years at least to gain all the modules.

The fact is that the European states see leading or guiding as a profession and one needs to be professional qualified. The Scottish MBL course is aimed at leading clubs (as a volunteer or amateur).
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skimottaret wrote:
Why is it every time some UK company flaunts the local rules in France the French are immediately accused of "protectionism"?

Because it is the French authorities who are flouting the law, as was quoted in el Hen's original post:

Quote:
“the authorities of the host Member State must authorise you to pursue a profession on its territory, if you have the required diploma from your country of origin in order to pursue that profession”
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Quote:

Me too but so is having to have an ISTD to teach beginners how to ski...

skimottaret, disagree! IMHO early stage learning is the most important. mid stage less so, high levels clearly require someone of higher competence...
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To my mind the key distinction is whether you are advertising a stand alone guiding service to the public that you are taking money for or are a firm providing clients staying in your holiday accommodation with someone "reasonably" skilled and experienced to help them discover the area.

One key problem is that within France different departments / prefectures are not enforcing things in the same way. Les Gets and Morzine seem to be the only problem areas at the moment and this area had a similar crack down on "ski guides" provided by UK based ski operators years ago. In other areas of the Savoie and Haute Savoie everyone is carrying on as they always have before.
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laundryman wrote:

Because it is the French authorities who are flouting the law, as was quoted in el Hen's original post:

Quote:
“the authorities of the host Member State must authorise you to pursue a profession on its territory, if you have the required diploma from your country of origin in order to pursue that profession”


The SCU MTB exam isn't a "professional" exam. That is their problem and this is why I don't think the EU angle will fly.

Even if you have a professional qualification you don't necessarily have the right to work in another EU state. My wife is a French lawyer, when she wanted to work in England as a lawyer she had to pass all the UK bar exams. If she wanted to work in Scotland she would have to pass the Scottish bar exams. I believe that doctors have to take an exam as well. Okay you can say that's because the law / medical terms are different. But there is a big difference in the scale of European mountains compared to the UK.

thomoski wrote:

To my mind the key distinction is whether you are advertising a stand alone guiding service to the public that you are taking money for or are a firm providing clients staying in your holiday accommodation with someone "reasonably" skilled and experienced to help them discover the area.


We went through this with the SBS case. Current jurisprudence in France is that you cannot offer "free guiding" or "free instruction" as part of a holiday. The jurisprudence dates in particular from a Club Med case (a French company).

thomoski wrote:

One key problem is that within France different departments / prefectures are not enforcing things in the same way.


You are looking not looking at this from a French viewpoint. The French police / Gendarmerie don't go round pro-actively enforcing things. They act on complaints as is the case at Morzine. Qualified mountain leaders are unhappy about unqualified guides operating in the area and made a complaint to the departmental satellite of the Minister of Sports. The MTBing companies in Morzine knew that they were breaking French legislation.
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I don't really feel it's fair to say that the firms knew they were flouting the law. The service being provided by UK operators doesn't really have a local equivalent.
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thomoski wrote:
I don't really feel it's fair to say that the firms knew they were flouting the law. The service being provided by UK operators doesn't really have a local equivalent.


Quote:

we did know about the legalities of all this - hence the fact that we don't "guide" - or charge for guiding. We ride (rode) with our clients for free, showing them stuff that they might not have found on their own. There's a big grey area between guiding and accompanying. We have been responsible by holding the uk qualifications along with first aid training etc. It was always going to be a possibility that something like this might happen - and now it has, hopefully we can push it further and become 100% legit.

- Endless ride

I dont' really care who guides or what their qualifications are to be truthful with you. Personally I would be happy for there to be no professional qualifications and let the market work but unfortunately there are a lot of stupid people who would use people who are totally incompetent at their professed profession and the authorities feel they need to be protected, as well as protecting professionals with "quotas" as to who can operate in certain areas.
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