 Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, Maybe it's useful to think of terrain and then turns type. Different terrain & snow needs different turns depending on the level of skier and what they are trying to do - have fun or just survive 
That way you can classify the most appropriate turn type to a given terrain & snow combination. The tools to do the job.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Scarpa, was my first real discovery of "sport" other than a gym....
My coach was very cool old guy - French Master of Arms... he appreciated my determination and took to trying to help me... with his aid I finally learnt (at 34 years of age) to JUMP (vertical jump more than about 2 inches)... The fencing really helped my co-ordination of my hands and arms... I fenced foil mostly (john was UK triweapons champion IIRC and coached all three) with a little epee - no sabre...
the thing I discovered (eventually) was that I was much better at tactics than all my friends...
eventually my friends saw the improvements I made and started taking more lessons and training more (which made john happy) because they figured if it could help me it would help them (My taking out of the club left hander - quite quick young guy but no brains at all - aided the above changes of heart... I am slow as a wet week with zip reflexes - I was using his own speed and his assumptions of how right handers fight left handers to make him beat himself)
the "focus" thing was the coolest though - I could plan a defence... shove it into my mind - then put it aside... and when the attack came (as I had envisaged) my body would take over and it would all happen in slow motion...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I never really got to that level with sabre. That weapon is just so fast. Most matches are over in seconds, and were a hell of a job to preside over. Try calling the sequence when it was all over in the flick of a wrist hehehe.
In foil my fav move was the envelopment and the lovely spiral in to their chest. With the sabre a ballestra with a double feint to get them on the back foot. Very rare to have that much time though.
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Scarpa, I was hopeless at the movement - but very good at the tactics... One of my friends was pretty natural athlete... he used to tell me what the opponent used to get him and I'd devise tactics for him to use their favourite move against them.... he started to get the idea but was just not that great at it himself... we needed my brain in his body!
I could take out the lefty because he would just keep on with the same attacks - even once I had used them back against him over and over... took him months to learn to NOT fall for it... (and he had to give in and take the private lessons he had been resisting for 2 years so John could teach him  )
the zone stuff was weird - because once I had planned the defense i wanted for their attack (and my followup attack) I could really just DO IT - all pre programmed... so the stuff I was not able to track consciously I could do automatically... and the slow motion that would result was weird... I could hit people I should not have got anywhere near...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah - I know what you mean. I prefered to wait for the opponents move (I am not Mr aggressive) but in sabre this would usually result in a loss. So I had to learn to attack as soon as you heard the word... but in a very planned manner.
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david@mediacopy, I fully agree, that may indeed be a useful way of approaching it. Would you agree though that there's usually more than one enjoyable way of skiing any given condition/terrain?
That could mean picking a line. That could then mean picking the tool (a muscle memory learned turn, a premixed blend of posture/steering, a familiar friend) from the toolbox which is most fit for purpose, and adjusting body management/ steering/control/flow for the realities encountered on the journey down?
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veeeight, skimottaret, Wonderful! I've only ever done it by accident myself.  Jet turns - huh.
slikedges, I'm not sure that all good skires would do the same turn int he same place. I think it depends on your personality far more. Natural turns? Mine is deffo a slight step when I'm not actually aware of what I'm doing. Hang over from the old days. I used to like to do short turns, but now I'm getting older and have less energy I only do them in lessons - medium radius is fine these days! I will write to you by PM in a week or so.
To throw names into the mix: plough turn, stem turn, stem christie, basic swing (not the same thing), basic parallel turn, refined parallel turn, stem step turn, parallel step, skating step, shear swing (austrian), lower ski drift, compression turn, retraction turn, jet turn, short swing (all types). These are what I can think of off the top of my head, but what most of them have in common is that they are out of date! Basically, these days, we don't think about particular names and types of turn. You should have learned to ski 30 years ago.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Would you agree though that there's usually more than one enjoyable way of skiing any given condition/terrain? |
That could mean picking a line. That could then mean picking the tool (a muscle memory learned turn, a premixed blend of posture/steering, a familiar friend) from the toolbox which is most fit for purpose, and adjusting body management/ steering/control/flow for the realities encountered on the journey down?[/quote]
For sure, and the easier the ground the more choice you have. When the ground gets tricky, choice becomes more 'focused' - maybe even not choosing a turn at all. Side Slip is an excellent 'get out of jail' tool
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski,
an instructor named Martin Hecklemen (sp) was very pleased with himself on a video named "ski tips 2" back around early 90's with his "jet turn" which i thought even as a newby skier was really, really useless and stupid. Going through bumps he would ski the troughs and "jet" his legs forward get his weight way back and try to hit the front of the next bump.
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easiski, I don't think all of them do, but I do think of all the turns you would see, maybe a couple would stand out in any combo of snow/slope as being used more often. Your list is indeed obsolete, but I think they've been replaced by a whole load of new turns distinguished by being a preformulated blend of posture and steering (each skill subject to magnitude, duration, onset and release timing), waiting to be classified by someone who knows more about skiing/is a better skier than me!
david@mediacopy, again, totally agree. I find off piste I've often had to use the turn I've chosen, though by my definition on another thread , an expert would still have had a choice. Side slipping - sooo important; even better side-scraping (active feet power side slip!).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, martin heckelman from step by step skiing skills 1989
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, thats the guy, note weight back, arms back. guess it musta worked back then 
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You know it makes sense.
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From my limited ski experience it seems variables/parameters of a turn type are perhaps being mistaken for being a different turn entirely.
for example I can on a good day carve either in a crouched position, low down, of standing more upright with knees still bent. In both cases I'm carving but the sensation and weight distribution will be different in the crouched down position compared to the other.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PisteHead, no, esp if the line were the same I think I'd probably classify that as one turn, unless eg you were only railing the second one. I'm talking about turns with distinctly different premixes of steering and other fundamentals, but common to many skiers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, if you want to do it that way then split the turn into start, middle and end. And ask the questions:
1. How do I start a turn?
Skis parallel? Skis wedged? Start by tipping? Start by twisting? Start by pressing? Start by a combination?...
2. In the middle of the turn...
Am I on 1 edge? 2 Edges? No edges? Tipping more? Twisting more? Pressing more?...
3. At the end of the turn...
Am I on 1 edge? 2 Edges? No edges? Tipping more? Twisting more? Pressing more? Trying to get off the edges?...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, now that's more like it, now ya cookin'. See, my idea was to put down some turns first then work out exactly what you've said there about them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, slikedges, In reality though turns happen so quickly although you can analyse the points of them after the event, can you realistically think your way through them at the time? I don't know if I could.
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Megamum, believe it or not, you sort of can. With short turns you think about how much of what and when, do it, feel how it went, feedback and do it again only better. You can also feel and adjust steering during the turn and esp easily during a medium or longer radius turn. If you're not worried about staying upright or your posture/balance/flow or snow/terrain adjustments, you certainly have time to think about adjusting steering skills (pressure, edge, rotation) which you already know how to fine tune. You'll be able to do this with a bit of practise.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Martin Heckelman scares me,
How about you?
He shouldn't be that scary
He's only five foot two
etc etc
with apologies to David Ippolito
anyone who remembers "Tea for Two" will know what I'm talking about 
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Yoda, tea for two does bring back shudders with Martin's odd accent was it english/ austrian or ???
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slikedges, I should probably add in the questions about skis being parallel/wedged (converging or diverging) in parts 2 & 3.
Then you'd also add in how much weight/pressure/forces... are on each ski at each part of the turn.
To define the 3 parts:
Start of turn: from facing across the slope, or from the completion of the last turn, until approaching the fall line.
Middle of turn: Just before entering the fall line until just after coming out of it.
End of turn: From the middle until you have completed the turn and are at the same speed but facing the opposite way from the previous turn.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, Jet turns are fun.
How many turns are there? Easy answer.
One.
Everything else is simply a variation.
Bit like "How many ways are there to play a piano". And before you get all pedantic, "badly" doesn't count.
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David Murdoch, might be fun but they DO look a bit weird. Cant find my copy of Ski tips 2 so can t rmember exact technique, but i will definately be trying to perfect the worm turn as a goal for this year, might as well add the jet turn as well
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, how about the slow noodle?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Murdoch, don't know that one, do tell
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The slow dog noodle was invented by Robert "Boogie" Mann during a k2 HotDog contest on Aspen Mountain, sometime in the very early seventies. The term combines hot dog, with slow speed, with the dynamics of a noodle.
http://www.dickbarrymore.com/book4.asp
The move was subsequently popularised by Wanye Wong (alongside the Wong Banger, Worm Turn, etc).
The following extract from Weems:
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Gnarlito and Mudfoot come pretty close to describing it accurately when you combine their descriptions. It's simply a retraction/extension turn in the bumps done at an incredibly slow tempo. The real slow/noodle part is where the skier's legs seem to collapse as the skis ride up the back of the bump, and the knees come right up to chest level with the torso first folding forward, then because of the leverage on the pole, being left quite far behind. The skis almost come to a stop, then pivot over the crest and start down the hill while the torso extends forward to prepare for the next absorption. If done well the pole is forward at the plant, but stays in the snow for so long (holding the skier up and acting as a fulcrum point) that the hand and pole really end up quite far back. In those days everyone skied like that in bumps (only faster and better). We used to really rip at the pecs and arms in this move. I found that longer poles ( I learned it from Tom Leroi) worked better because the pole plant could support from behind while still keeping the hands more forward. I had 56" poles.
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You know it makes sense.
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FAQ
