 Poster: A snowHead
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Not the clog like snowboard bindings but the verb or possibly noun?
Increasingly seems to be term adopted by instructors/methodologies. I believe BASI has a focus on "flow" and its been mentioned recently in other threads. In the context of freeskiing contests I can perfectly understand it but what does it mean to the regular punter?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, I have heard instructors use this in carving lessons - referring to the difference between proper carving, where a good 's' shape is made & a not so good technique where a zig-zag shape is made. (FB; If I am on the wrong track - pls. tell me & I'll delete this nonsense  )
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've always understood it to be almost synonymous with fluid - one movement flows seamlessly into the next, no hesitations, no "jagged edges" for want of a better term,
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fatbob, It's been around yonks, the foundation of ski schools in past decades have been set up on the concept of "flow and resist"!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So does it mean "let em run" or seamless progress down the mountain, smooth "gearchanges" e.g. fom GS to moguls to SL to run out, or a combination of the above. I'd say its about not hesitating but adapting to what is in front of you "on the fly" rather then the roundness of inidividual turns but I was curious to see if there is a technical definition.
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fatbob, Flow has cropped up in British skiing a few times in the past. Firstly in the SSE concept where a skier flows at the top of an arc ( as the centre of mass moves down the slope whilst the feet are above the CM, as the feet pass below the CM resistance in created by the feet passing across the direcion of "flow") Hence flowing and resisting.
Also, there is the concept where skiers ski with fluency and easy, balance the forces created by objects moving around and arc by being in a stacked and centred stance. In short when a skier is performing with "flow" they appear to be using the forces to create the most efficient outcome. Its possible to ski "technically" quite sound, but to lack flow. Its possible to be a strong powerful skier and to battle down the slope as an example.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| So does it mean "let em run" or seamless progress down the mountain, smooth "gearchanges" e.g. fom GS to moguls to SL to run out, or a combination of the above. I'd say its about not hesitating but adapting to what is in front of you "on the fly" rather then the roundness of inidividual turns but I was curious to see if there is a technical definition. |
I'd say it is about having good turn mechanics and great transitions....
The classic "lack of flow" I imagine is the "hoik down the hill" syndrome... which results in a very clear "hitch" in every transition... when you see a person ski like this and then a good clean arc2arc skier you can clearly the the "lack of flow" versus "flow".
I once described my ex's skiing as being super smooth down the hill.... I then had to describe an instructor I skied with to him and my description was that as much above average skiers as regular instructors were, and as much above regular instructors as he was, that was how far above him this instructor was.... the difference between him and a regular instructor was FLOW, the difference between him and the instructor I was describing FLOW! Cat like grace on skis does not come with a lack of flow!
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A quote from Wayne Watson:-
“One of the keys to flowing skiing is controlling the tail of the skis. No matter what you are doing on your skis, whether it is side-slipping, or any type of turn between “A” and “Z” (think of “A” as a flat ski and “Z” as a maximum edged ski), the goal is to control the tail of the downhill ski. The moment the tail slides away you have lost your “grip” and your platform will be slipping away from you. If the tail gets away, the downhill leg becomes a brace, blocking the hips and upper body from flowing into the next turn. And once the flow into the next turn is blocked, mistakes are inevitable. Because the hips cannot move into the next turn, your only way out is a straight “up” motion, a rotation, a stem, or a combination of any or all of these. Once the tails are sliding away your platform will be weak and unstable. You will not be in total control of your momentum, and getting off an unsteady platform and into the next turn will be forced instead of a smooth connection.”
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That's a good description. It's also exactly what I feel when I lose my rhythm in a mogul run. Balance goes, lose ankle and knee flex, downhill leg straightens and then the next turn is blocked and almost impossible without some upper body action. I've been trying to correct it by staying flexed, keeping my weight centred over the pivot point of the skis and turning my thighs faster. Keeping control of the tails is a good thought to have as well. Who is Wayne Watson?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I would say that 'flow' means absence of discontinuities in derivatives of position (of all part's of the skier's body) versus time. The magnitude of the higher order derivatives (three and above) should be small at all times.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BGA, "Wayne Watson was born in 1955 in Calgary. He started skiing at the age of eight, and began teaching at Lake Louise at the age of 18. In 1980 he arrived in Val d'Isere and seriously took up off-piste skiing. He took the French "equivalence" in 1985 and the Moniteur Nationale in 1988. In 1992 he became a founder member of Alpine Experience"
Yes, being centred over the pivot point will help a lot, and I suspect we've all suffered "wooden leg" syndrome at some point 
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 3-07-07 15:46; edited 1 time in total
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rpft, any good "S" shape is a good turn, whether it's carved or not. In fact, as WW also notes, it takes a lot more skill to steer a good round turn on flat skis than it does to carve 
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks Yoda my Google search came up with http://www.waynewatson.com/ Slightly concerned because as a wise man once said 'try anything once except incest and folk music'
Just been on to Amazon and picked up a copy of Off-Piste Skiing for £8
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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BGA, a bargain! enjoy
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| laundryman wrote: |
| I would say that 'flow' means absence of discontinuities in derivatives of position (of all part's of the skier's body) versus time. The magnitude of the higher order derivatives (three and above) should be small at all times. |
I see this as incomplete. Should it not also include space derivatives of velocity?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just when I thought I was understanding what was going on......
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Frosty the Snowman, pay no mind, it's only really relevant when the instructor talks about 'blocking' movements.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Frosty the Snowman, think of a river (or a stream) - it flows down the mountain. If the river bed is not rocky, then it flows silently, without big movements. Not shocking. Absorbing small bumps, rising gracefully over large ones. Filling in the hollows like they weren't there.
If you want to flow, then be the river.
(or some such twaddle)
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Wear The Fox Hat, I am guessing I wouldn't be a small mountain stream 
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comprex, I really did think of including that!
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Frosty the Snowman, wait till your prostate starts enlarging...
Back on topic, rpft, carving isn't the be all and end all (IMHO), but it is a very efficient way of skiing using the intrinsic design of modern shaped skies.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Flow requires well coordinated and continuous movement. The antithesis of stiff (dog in a bathtub) skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| Flow requires well coordinated and continuous movement. The antithesis of stiff (dog in a bathtub) skiing. |
If I saw a dog in a bathtub skiing I'd be more impressed than the most elegant skier you could ever imagine
As I originally feared "flow" is probably something more geeky than simple progression down the mountain.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| fatbob wrote: |
As I originally feared "flow" is probably something more geeky than simple progression down the mountain. |
laundryman doesn't mention, but the third time derivative of position is called 'jerk'. Eliminate* that and you're well on your way to understanding 'flow'.
Still geeky?
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You know it makes sense.
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Ah. Partly my fault then.
I posted what I did because that is the easiest (for me) way to understand 'flow' of the centre of mass.
Braking that flow, or, worse, redirecting it uphill (the intuitively comfortable sensation) requires strong edges and muscle power, which is exactly what you do not wish to use* when changing edges to go to the next turn.
* because it is demanding of strength, edge sharpness and time whilst being wasteful of momentum.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| comprex wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| I would say that 'flow' means absence of discontinuities in derivatives of position (of all part's of the skier's body) versus time. The magnitude of the higher order derivatives (three and above) should be small at all times. |
I see this as incomplete. Should it not also include space derivatives of velocity? |
i shall take these thoughts up on the mountain with me
NOT
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Poster: A snowHead
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Arno, wot, you've something better to do whilst tromping on the skis of others in lift line queues*?
*Belongs in the category of someone else disrupting flow, truly despicable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
quote="fatbob"
If I saw a dog in a bathtub skiing I'd be more impressed than the most elegant skier you could ever imagine |
I've seen quite a few who well define the analogy, BigBonedBob, and believe me, it's not very impressive.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Yoda wrote: |
| rpft, any good "S" shape is a good turn, whether it's carved or not. In fact, as WW also notes, it takes a lot more skill to steer a good round turn on flat skis than it does to carve |
Both steered and carved turns executed well are rare commodities on public slopes. Both require some skills beyond those possessed by the common tail tossers. If asked to rate them for difficulty, I'd be prone to rate the carved turn more difficult, as it requires a comfort level with greater speed, and a greater range of lateral movement ability.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| BGA wrote: |
| Yoda wrote: |
A quote from Wayne Watson:- ...
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That's a good description. ... |
Echo that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I hope his book is full of other nuggets and so will improve my skiing beyond measure, thereby giving me more ability to dodge any dogs that happen to be skiing by in a bathtub
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BGA, it would either need to be a very big bath tub, or the dog would have to make a lot of small turns. Unless he straightlined it from the taps to the other end of the bath.
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Extreme freeride dogging you might say. Actually that could be taken the wrong way..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger started it. I was going to comment that it may be a little cold for that sort of behaviour. Anyway I think we should get back to Wayne Watson's ideas as they are more wholesome
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Now in the correct thread:
Does anyone want to hazard a guess at the difference between the "Fall Line" and the "Flow Line"? 
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FAQ
your post about controlling the tails of the skis is v. interesting - will have a little think about that tomorrow on the plastic 
) from the instructors here & I tried these different methods out in france, over various sorts of terrain. I can carve, but on the whole use a variety of different styles & only carve when I want to go faster 
Not an expression I'd heard before in my sheltered life. Please put a stop to this now, this is a serious thread 