 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN,
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my confidence went, and I could no longer make a parallel turn.
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Surely not! 
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indispensible tools in an off-piste/back-country skier's toolbox (and probably the kick-turn too
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kick-turn is useful at the very top of Tortin/Le Tunnel/Les Grands Montets etc etc (delete as applicable/substitute any very steep run where an awful lot of people are b8ggering about at the very top.)
What's braquage, please?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, from the Master, Georges Joubert:-
"Braquage - a rapid pivoting of the skis in a wide stance"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc, ah good, I'm not alone in appreciating him then (I was getting worried there for a bit). Skis going fast and loose through slush don't get snagged 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yoda, Thank you. Don't think I've ever done it, at least not knowingly. 
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Hurtle, well who knows?
"It may help you to understand that you are equipped with extremely powerful muscles for making this almost "natural" pivoting movement from a wide stance. It's practically impossible for you to be limited by a lack of muscular power.....but...the "braquage" stop presents essentially a psychological problem. You have to be bold!"
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3rd party recommendation 'I've skied with you, and I've skied with her, and you're about the same standard. You'll be fine - book your lessons together'! It worked so well, that our instructor actually praised us for pairing up, and we'd never met before setting foot in the chalet. We skied together pretty much all the time for the rest of the week after that. It was great. (She was the one who persuaded me that I'd love Oblivion at Alton Towers a month ago. And you know what? She was right!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Latchigo,
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Bracage is Nu Skool - for all the good it did me. Stems were seen as very much a last resort - which is a shame, because I like stem turns.
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Braquage is a good drill to develop leg rotation, but do you want to spend your whole life skidding. Braquage was developed by the PSIA in the 1970's, it doesn't sound too 'Nu Skool' to me.
A stem turn is taught as an advanced manoevre in Canada, as a 'Situational Stem' for use in steep and difficult terrain. Pretty much the 'Banker Turn'
Use Braquage when you should be using a stem, make sure you've got a Hospital reservation.
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abc,
Personally I wouldn't want a jump in slush... ..seriously, just a bit of speed and rounded turns should power through. But if you wanted to practice there, then it might set you up for when you really need to get them round and clear the snow.
A little jump on icy pistes might be overkill and you might not find the piste steep enough...but again you need to know that you can reset you edges PDQ. In fact a WS vid, I watched the other day, demoed this very well.
I also, think the stem turn is still very valid. I've seen some very good skiers resort to it at times.
I can't recall an instance when I needed it last year but I'd have no problem using it, if I had to. This comes under 'safety first'
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| JT wrote: |
..........I also, think the stem turn is still very valid. I've seen some very good skiers resort to it at times.
I can't recall an instance when I needed it last year but I'd have no problem using it, if I had to. This comes under 'safety first' |
Amen.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| achilles wrote: |
| JT wrote: |
..........I also, think the stem turn is still very valid. I've seen some very good skiers resort to it at times.
I can't recall an instance when I needed it last year but I'd have no problem using it, if I had to. This comes under 'safety first' |
Amen. |
Indeed.
I'd go so far as to say there is no such a thing as an "invalid" turn. Making the best choice in which way you want to turn is what seperates the better skiers from us mortals.
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And another thing, the mini/half stem is less tiring and it is when you are tired that your skiing can become marginal. So you need all the help you can get, in that case.
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You know it makes sense.
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JT, you've been watching me at the end of the day? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Personally I wouldn't want a jump in slush... ..seriously, just a bit of speed and rounded turns should power through.
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JT, Yoda, I thought we were talking in the context of the "bankers turn", which I understand is you HAVE TO make it when other more "normal" turns won't do!
Sure, slush is "usually" best done with speed. But what if there're rocks in the way and the line is not clear for a high speed round turn? Or you found yourself "boxed in" by some rocks or tree stumps and HAD TO reverse direction? I thought a jump turn in that situation would be the easiest to do. (actually, a kick turn would do too, but I think a jump turn might actually take less energy)
JT, I'm with you that I'm not too crazy about a jump turn in icy condition precisely because resetting the edge on ice is less than sure. More over, a jump turn needs a solid pole plant, which is also not always garantee to hold in very icy conditions.
Now that we're talking about it, I realize for me the jump turn is my "banker's turn", except on ice, when I'd rather use a stem. I hadn't needed the kick turn for quite some time now since I learn to side slip and back up at the same time (known in some quarter as "falling leave move")
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Poster: A snowHead
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abc, ah slight misunderstanding there, sorry. But given the adhesion between slush and ski base that I usually notice (wax anyone?) I would have thought that a kick turn might be easier on the legs or would reduce the chances of jumping out of your binding. Still, if it works for you..... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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abc,
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side slip and back up at the same time (known in some quarter as "falling leave move"
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How do you do that? Sounds extremely useful. Don't really know why, I used to have no problem kick-turning anywhere, but now I get scared doing it somewhere extremely steep. Also, my Heads weigh a ton, so waving a ski above my head ain't so comfortable!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle,
Side-slip forwards, then side-slip backwards, although don't let the tails drop too far, just in case you lose it and head downhill in a backward fall as this could tip you on your head... and presumable the tightness of the terrain is why you are doing this in the 1st place, this might just put a rock or tree in your way.
Twin tips are more useful for this as they tend to stop the back/tails hooking up.
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JT, Thanks, I'll give it a whirl somewhere safe! I can see that twin tips would make it easier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
abc,
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side slip and back up at the same time (known in some quarter as "falling leave move"
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How do you do that? Sounds extremely useful. Don't really know why, |
A "pure" side slip has the ski perpendicular to the fall line. So when you release pressure on the edges, the ski slide down the fall line.
A "forward" side slip is accomplished by angling the tip of the ski sllightly down slope so when you release some edge pressure, the ski slide down AND forward. Most people can comfortably do a forward sideslip naturally because by this stage they are pretty good at stopping a forward & downward movement at will (aka "hockey stop").
Similarly, a "backward" side slip is done by angling the tail of the ski slightly downslope and release edge pressure.
But most people don't get much pratice at stopping a backward slide. Because if you simply pressure the ski, you ended up making a turn going backwards, which is NOT exactly what you intended! To stop, you need to first bring the tip downslope so the ski is perpendicular (atually slightly pass perpendicular) to the fall line again BEFORE you pressure the edge.
As JT pointed out, you don't want to pick up much speed going backward because a fall can really wack your head good. 
Backward side slip comes in handy when you found yourself stuck with not enough room in front to do a normal turn. It's then either a kick turn, or a backward side slip to "make some room" to put a turn in.
Side slip work better on "smoothy" surface such as groomed/hardpack/ice. So the tail catching things usually isn't a high likelihood (still possible). I learned the trick way back before there's twin tips. And so far there hasn't been much problem of tail catching things. Though come next season, I'll be on twin tips (for totally unrelated reason).
Anything that's too "lumpy", the side slip ended up being more of a series of "side steps".
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| Spyderman wrote: |
Latchigo,
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Bracage is Nu Skool - for all the good it did me. Stems were seen as very much a last resort - which is a shame, because I like stem turns.
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Braquage is a good drill to develop leg rotation, but do you want to spend your whole life skidding. Braquage was developed by the PSIA in the 1970's, it doesn't sound too 'Nu Skool' to me.
A stem turn is taught as an advanced manoevre in Canada, as a 'Situational Stem' for use in steep and difficult terrain. Pretty much the 'Banker Turn'
Use Braquage when you should be using a stem, make sure you've got a Hospital reservation. |
Now I'm being pedantic (and all my books have been packed up), but I'm pretty sure that the French came up with braquage. In any case I can't really see the americans giving something a french name can you? "Skiing, an art a Technique" was, I think, written in the late 60's but I could easily be wrong about that.
Braquage is one of the cornerstones of the french skill teaching. However - I wouldn't like to use it in deep snow!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Falling leaf is a manoevre named from the snowboard school. While we've always done it in skiing they actually named it AFAIK. abc, we call it vertical or diagonal side slipping. Diagonal is just as valid either forwards or backwards, but neither is considered "pure" this side of the pond.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Benchmark skills:
1. Are you friendly?
2. Do you mind slowing down for me if necessary?*
3. Will you get your round in at the bar?
*Equally, will you be happy to go off without me, but meet later for lunch/drinks if planned?
Everything else is relatively irrelevant. |
If your list describes you WTFH, please can I ski with you? No 2 will be necessary, but don't worry abouy 3, cos I'll def buy you one!
Seriously, for me the * point is very important - I absolutely hate to feel people are being held back from enjoying their skiing because they feel they have to stay with me. Yes, I do want to ski with my friends some of the time, and I am not confident enough to ski alone, but the gap between our abilities is massive so a balance is vital. What I'm planning next year is to get lessons for the mornings when my friends will go off separately and then to ski with them some of the afternoons.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski,
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I'm pretty sure that the French came up with braquage.
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They did, it just took the Americans to work out how to use it, back in the 70's with the shift in equipment type, from wooden skis to what now resembles modern skis.
That's why I said 'Developed' and not 'Invented'
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spyderman, aaahhhh. 
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easiski, my quotes above are from "Skiing, an art a Technique"
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| Use Braquage when you should be using a stem, make sure you've got a Hospital reservation. |
Tell me about it. Been there. Done that. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yoda, Yes - I realised that, but so many peeps have never read it or seen it or heard of it..... I take umbrage at crediting the yanks with something the french invented or named or whatever. Is it part of the (apparently) strong anti-french bias on this forum? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Actually, I thought there was an anti USA/Canada bias (in terms of where to ski)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| ......But given the adhesion between slush and ski base that I usually notice (wax anyone?)...... |
A regular wiping with Zardoz Notwax teflon overlay is superb in wet conditions - & is a lot easier for UK based skiers who are prepping their skis back home for unknown temps/conditions. Use the ZN 'pocket puck' as it's small, dead easy to use & cheap. In really slushy conditions apply it each morning & again if the skis feel sticky later in the day.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski,
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I take umbrage at crediting the yanks with something the french invented
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I take it that point is aimed at me. As I said it was 'Developed' by the PSIA, not 'Invented'
There also seems to be a view that unless you're qualified though the French system, teach in France and do your skiing in France, that your qualification and opinion is worthless.
I'd rather have instruction by a CSIA/PSIA/BASI Instructor that actually is interested in me improving, using current up to date techniques and having a good time, than some ESF guy who all you see doing on the Mountain is follow me with 15 pupils in tow.
From experience the quality of instruction I have received in Canada is light years beyond that which I have received in France.
I like skiing in France, mainly because of it's convenience to get there, good lift systems, pretty snow sure and good ski terrain, but given the choice, Canada everytime.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Yoda, Yes - I realised that, but so many peeps have never read it or seen it or heard of it..... I take umbrage at crediting the yanks with something the french invented or named or whatever. Is it part of the (apparently) strong anti-french bias on this forum? |
Not sure there is an anti-French bias. Maybe an anti ESF bias and a general feeling that race criteria don't necesarily seem the most appropriate way of determining fitness to teach but I'm sure France remains the most visited destination and the place where most shs are falling over themeselves to buy property.
There is a distinct Euro bias though I would say as many shs have not skied outside of Europe (plus a reaction against that US epic type habit of ver analysis)
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| Spyderman wrote: |
I'd rather have instruction by a CSIA/PSIA/BASI Instructor that actually is interested in me improving, using current up to date techniques and having a good time, than some ESF guy who all you see doing on the Mountain is follow me with 15 pupils in tow.
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I'd rather have a lesson with any instructor that was interested than one that was not and was only there for the cheap lift pass/discount gear/stroking own ego etc
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From experience the quality of instruction I have received in Canada is light years beyond that which I have received in France.
I like skiing in France, mainly because of it's convenience to get there, good lift systems, pretty snow sure and good ski terrain, but given the choice, Canada everytime. |
Now one of my main instructors back home is Canadian and I think he is great... and I've had some terrific lessons with some other canadians, but I'd argue the point on this.
I've seen CSIA certified instructors who were not particularly good. In fact my ex made one cry by skiing them down a piste after a storm!
I've NEVER had a REALLY bad lesson from a french instructor. I'll say that I have not had many...and that I was told by my ex(instructor trainer worked all around the world) to tell european instructors that he says I'm a good skier but VERY nervous and they should just ski me around and they will see what he means... he suggests they ski me rather than teach me until they know me well...
I've skied with an american instructor that could not hold a traverse off-piste ... because.... well she had never had to do that before...
I've had 2 years of lessons with a PSIA instructor who quite frankly STUNK! She teaches all her bad habits that she has never had corrected in her skiing to all her students... it is a nightmare for those that have to correct this in students...
I'd summarise it like this
European instructors - you are FAR less likely to get one that just cannot ski! (so at least you can follow and copy)
Less likely to be pandering to client wishes.
More likely to assume you want to learn to SKI at a decent level eventually if you show any interest, so more likely to be tough on you.
When you get a good one (which seems easier to do than in USA) you get:
Much better understanding of bio-mechanics than those in North America - especially the austrians and italians. You may have a less "vocal" instructor due to language issues but oh boy EVERYTHING you get told is good stuff. They sure can teach a lot just by gettting you to do things (very good at selecting exercises)
North American - much variability - lower levels may not ski at all well.
You are much more likely to get one that talks well - this can be good or bad depending on what they talk!
When you get a good one (more likely with a high level CSIA - they have to ski pretty well to get their higher certs)they are very good.
In general I'd pick a european to learn the basics and learn them well (up to high intermediate low advanced).
Then a canadian to get really going off-piste , and a european for on piste training.
Then go back to a european with guiding certs (I have skied with a few austrians at top cert level and they are awesome)
disclaimer - I mostly take private lessons because I dislike being in a group lesson with folks that don't really try
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I'd say fatbob has it about right.
Personally, I'd buy in Switzerland tho' 
I think this site does its best to dampen down any rabid fervour, generally, wherever it comes from.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Everyone loves UIAGM... I believe the UIAGM trainer in Le Grave is an American. Joe Suitcase.....can't pronounce his real name, and correct me if I am wrong but I was told that a few times when I was there.
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| JT wrote: |
I think this site does its best to dampen down any rabid fervour, generally, wherever it comes from. |
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.”
Albert Einstein
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FAQ
But thanks for clearing them up for me.
