 Poster: A snowHead
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david@mediacopy, The SSE system does end at ASSI, in Instructing terms, without persuing a Coaching route. The whole point was you could do your CI, then your ASSI and then use the ASSI as an exemption for the BASI Foundation course. BASI from May 2008 have withdrawn this exemption. So why follow the SSE scheme, then have to start from scratch with BASI, when you can do the BASI Level 1, which offers the same Artificial qualification, for the same price and you get a direct route into the higher BASI qualifications.
I know that Hemel dry slope, has no intention of running anymore SSE courses, just the BASI Level 1's.
If SSE don't sort an agreement quickly, I can see this as the first nail in the coffin for the SSE & SSS ASSI qualifications.
With regard to the coaching awards, BASI have set up BASC ( British Assc of Snowsports Coaches) to what looks like a direct competitor to the SSE caoching scheme also.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rjs,
BASI have also decided to withdraw the excemption of APC from the BASI APM(Alpine Performance Module) as a part of BASI Ski Teacher ISIA.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| BASI have also decided to withdraw the excemption of APC from the BASI APM(Alpine Performance Module) as a part of BASI Ski Teacher ISIA. |
So ?
Some people take the APC courses in order to use them, not just for a tick in a box for BASI.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I have just lost the will to live
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight, just for you...
Where does PMTS fit in to BASI?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think the two would go spendidly well together 
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Spyderman, They are separate organisations serving different groups of people.
If someone want's to pursue the BASI route then BASI already offer a trainee instructor / foundation course to prep people for the 2 week Grade 3 assessment.
While they may be able to go the ASSI route and get an exemption (saving a fair bit of cash) it's arguable that this route will give them the same level of preparation and personal training for the 2 week assessment. Any savings made will then be lost if they then have to do a resit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rjs wrote: |
| david@mediacopy, APC level 2 also qualifies for the IVSI licence. |
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david@mediacopy,
What route would you advise someone who wishes to become an Instructor to take. Assuming that they want to do it part time in the UK to begin with, but are unsure about the future, as it depends how they take to instructing?
Option 1 SSE ASSI
Option 2 BASI Level 1
I ask this question because that's exactly the situation that I am in.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 7-06-07 13:20; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Spyderman, how about getting a CI 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret,
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how about getting a CI
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We are not going to allow a CI to teach at Hemel in future, as we do not consider it a high enough standard.
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david@mediacopy,
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While they may be able to go the ASSI route and get an exemption
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That's the point they will not get an exemption from May 2008.
The BASI Level 1 courses will be run by BASI ISTD Trainers, if at the end of the course they pass the candidate at Level 1, all shadowing complete and say they are ready for Level 2. The chance they have of passing should be as good, if not better than someone who has only done the Trainee course, as they would have had the opportunity to teach on their own rather than just shadowing, in the case of a Trainee.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
david@mediacopy,
What route would you advise someone who wishes to become an Instructor to take. Assuming that they want to do it part time in the UK to begin with, but are unsure about the future, as it depends how they take to instructing?
Option 1 SSE ASSI
Option 2 BASI Level 1
I ask this question because that's exactly the situation that I am in. |
When I did mine I did both CI, ASSI and BASI Foundation. I think I passed my ASSI just before my BASI Instructor course. The CI and ASSI allowed me to work at my local slope and gain instructing experience.
If your objective (or that of your trainee instructors) is to work through the BASI system then I would recommend doing the Foundation course on snow whatever, for both the personal performance training and the trainers feedback. On my Instructor course (and others I've heard of) 'dry slope' ASSIs struggled if they had not done the foundation week on snow (but it was a few years ago).
With that in mind I guess it doesn't matter which you do in the first instance, it depends on which is acceptable to your local slope and whats running locally.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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big difference is that now the new first level BASI allows you to teach unsupervised on dry slopes like the ASSI but with the added benefit of being taught by BASI trainers with your choice of in the mountains or artificial. If cost is similar seems a no brainer to go for BASI level 1 now as opposed to ASSI.
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On my Instructor course (and others I've heard of) 'dry slope' ASSIs struggled if they had not done the foundation week on snow
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same experience , The two people with ASSI's who skipped the basi foundation course both failed the Instructor course i was on.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret,
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If cost is similar seems a no brainer to go for BASI level 1 now as opposed to ASSI.
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Exactly my point.
The end of the ASSI? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Unfortunately for many, the cost of the ASSI, let along the BASI L1, is prohibitive. Remember that the majority of dry slopes around the UK are staffed by CI's and CCI's - who work for next to nothing, some are volunteers, some combine their teaching roles with maintenance etc.
Whilst Hemel may have the luxury of not accepting and CI's to teach - most other slopes don't.
In this case a CI qualification is best suited to that demographic. Whether you like it or not, CCI's and CI's are the staple of the dry slope in the UK doing the bread and butter donkey work.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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veeeight, what is a CCI?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Candidate Club Instructor - one who has completed the CI course, but is progressing through the system, gaining their shadowing hours etc., before being signed off by their SSE coach.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, Your experience with SSE, pretty much sums up, the sort of things that I came up against. Which is why I voted with my feet also, plus my wife & son, who moved across to SSS & CSIA.
veeeight, I realise that some UK dry slopes are run on a very tight budget, but there is no reason not to progress the standard of teaching & qualifications of the people who teach there. It is for the good of the slope and more importantly the paying customers. We want them to have a good quality lesson, come back for more and tell their friends also.
Some of our existing CI's put the money from their teaching hours, to pay for ASSI or soon to be BASI L1 courses. Hemel provide all of the training necessary to raise their standard, at a cost of £5 for 2 hours.
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Spyderman, We've had this debate before in another thread. A higher qualification or a perceived "better" qualification (eg:BASI) does not necessarily equate to a better, higher quality lesson or more enjoyable time for the clients.
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veeeight, We have and we've done that to death. I agree with your above statement.
My view is that, good supportive Instructor training in modern teaching methods and a philosophy of self-improvement contributes to a better, higher quality lesson also.
Not exploiting someone just because they love what they're doing.
Sure you can be a great skier, have a high qualification and still deliver a lesson that would be of less value thanthat delivered by a CI. It's down to the individual person at the end of the dayas to whether or not you're a good teacher or not.
The point of my original posting of this thread was regarding BASI's entry into the UK artificial slope instructor qualification arena and it's relationship with the existing home nation qualification providers, not whether lessons should be taught by a particular grade of Instructor.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm afraid i'm with veeeight on this one. The two different qualification routes BASI v SSE appeal to different groups of skier. The BASI route seems to be for those people whose goal it is to do a season or two in the Alps whereas, in general, the people who qualify with SSE as CI and ASSI are instructing at a club level, part time in a usually unpaid role. Whilst the standard of skiing of a typical BASI 3 is much better than that of a typical ASSI, when you consider teaching ability and empathy with the student then the roles are reversed.
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John Scott, My experience of the Hemel dry slope, is very different to that which is being portrayed on this thread and others, as being the norm elsewhere in the UK. I have not taught at any other UK slope, so my experience is limited to the 16 years I have spent teaching at Hemel. The overwhelming majority of Instructors at Hemel are not there with a view to doing a season, they are teaching part time because they want to. They have lives and jobs outside the ski industry.
It seems like other slopes are exploiting their workforce 
We do pay everybody that teach's, no matter what level, unless they are shadowing.
There is a broad range of both SSS & SSE ASSI's, BASI & CSIA Instructors.
The majority attend our summer training sessions at a cost of £5 for 2 hours. This is to improve their skiing, teaching and further their qualifications.
Most Hemel Instructors, even though have no intention of teaching abroad, are looking to advance their qualifications.
Since the 2 BASI Level 1 courses have been announced at Hemel, there has been very keen interest amongst our Instructors to follow this route rather than the SSE or SSS systems. In fact we have not ran a SSE ASSI course for 3 years, prefering SSS because of the exemption into the BASI system and the use of the 'Central Theme'.
We will be actively promoting the BASI Level 1 system, at Hemel, and are seeking from BASI some sort of equivilence course, so that our already qualified ASSI's can transfer into the BASI system.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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John Scott,
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a typical BASI 3 is much better than that of a typical ASSI, when you consider teaching ability and empathy with the student then the roles are reversed.
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why is a basi 3 neccessarily a poorer teacher than an ASSI? sounds like nonsense to me if the two have the same amount of teaching experience.
I am all for a CI rating for dry slopes but lets have one governing body for all Instructors who wish to advance their training past teaching at a local dry slope
veeeight, not to restart the debate we had on the other thread but surely on balance the higher qualifications teacher has will typically equate to more committment, experience and desire. There will always be exceptions but i would prefer to take lessons from a BASI ISTD against a highly experienced CI anyday.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Most of the talk has been about ASSI getting exemption for passing into the BASI system but is there a reverse path? david@mediacopy pointed out the APC/ADC qualifications that have previously been left out of these discussions - does ASSI (or anything else) act as a feeder grade for these coaching qualifications, and if so is there a BASI grade equivalence that's also used as a prequalifier?
No particular vested interest here, but may think about something in the direction of dry-slope instructing in the future.
When I asked our coach about qualifications at our slope his view was that generally the skiing level was adequate from either ASSIs or CIs (most instruction at our slope is for young kids or raw beginners), but it was the teaching skills that were mainly lacking.
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skimottaret,
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I am all for a CI rating for dry slopes but lets have one governing body for all Instructors who wish to advance their training past teaching at a local dry slope
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We always have had only one UK body, for people who want to advance beyond the dry slope and that is BASI.
What we now have is one body that covers both the dry slope and the rest of the world. BASI.
The new arrangement if you exclude the CI award, makes SSE & SSS unnesessary, if you wish to start Instructing at a dry slope.
As stated earlier, for the same price as SSE, with BASI you get courses run by BASI ISTD Trainers. It's a no brainer not to go the BASI route.
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You know it makes sense.
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exclude the CI award, makes SSE & SSS unnesessary
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would you propose BASI does a CI level of training as well?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, You're not a typical beginner on a typical dry slope!
Does anyone know the costs involved? BASI (to generalise) are one money making machine. Is it going to cost the same to do a CI as it is to do a BASI L1?
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Poster: A snowHead
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GrahamN, SSE ASSI is the feeder for SSE APC. BASI Ski Instructor Level 2 can take APM for their performance module of BASI Ski Teacher or the new enhanced version for club coaches called BASC Level 1 Coach.
SSE & SSS APC will no longer be accepted after May 2008 instead of BASI APM in the BASI system.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret,
At Hemel we are currently running a 16 week, 2 hours per week course. As a pre BASI L1 training course, which will also involve some shadowing experience. This is not run by BASI, but Hemel slope. It is the intention to prepare students for the L1 course and submit them when ready. This is charged at £10 per 2 hour session. It is not compulsory to attend every week, but most do.
I do not think BASI will or should offer an equivilent CI Level.
veeeight, The cost of the 5 day L1 course at Hemel is tbc £300. The cost of SSS ASSI last year was £295. It is unfair to compare the CI with the L1, but perfectly valid to compare L1 with ASSI.
On top of course costs BASI assc. membership £45 which is pretty much the same as SSE.
First Aid 2 days about £90.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, AFAIK BASI is not for profit members organisation. You could debate their efficiency and value for money but on the courses i have done i thought they were excellent. New generation in courchevel charged
trainee instructor (one week) £355.00 + £45.00 BASI associate Membership
basi 3 (two weeks) £490 plus upgrade to full BASI membership (25 quid i think)
First aiders course st johns ambulance £51
CHild Protection Module (4 hours) £25 (i think)
two weeks with a BASI trainer in a group of 10 peeps with video analysis, evening sessions, etc for around £6 per hour is pretty damm good value IMO.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight,
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Sadly though for many the cost of the current CI course (between £80-£120) offer that first rung on the ladder for the majority in the UK, whilst £300 may be prohibitive.
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I shudder sometimes at the way keen skiers who want to give something back by teaching are treated sometimes by the slope operators. The CI cost at £80 -£120 is not the whole story either. That maybe the cost of the compulsory weekend, but what about 1st Aid, CRB check, training expenses, equipment, membership of SSE, the list goes on.
Then when you pass CI, slopes expect you to teach for nothing, while earning them money. 
I recon the cost of a 2 week BASI L2 course is about £2k. with course fee, accomodation, lift pass, food & transport. Then you get paid £8 an hour. 
Total cost to get BASI ISTD about £30k.
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david@mediacopy,
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veeeight wrote:
Have you looked at the total cost of getting the BASI G2?
I know that it would buy a lot of Heli Skiing . . . .
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How about being paid to take someone Heliskiing 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, Sounds cool, but I thought heli skiing would be the domain of UIAGM Mountain Guides ?
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david@mediacopy, ISTDs can take clients off piste anywhere except glaciated areas.
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FAQ
might not get there but a couple of years of trying will rack up i am sure. the instruction is the cheap bit 
