 Poster: A snowHead
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OK for the 3 so far we've got by popular votes:
1 ILE - but I prefer to call it sidestepping (less techy more visual)
2 Rollerblade wiggles (bit poncey but not downright embarassing) -looks very cool after the last air on mogul comps
What's number 3?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Hurtle wrote: |
FastMan,
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with feet hip width apart
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This indeed works. Must your skis also be hip width apart for it to work on snow? |
Hurtle, no they don't. If you experimented on your own with different foot separations (which I suspect you may have), you'll have found that the wider the feet are apart, the faster you will tip when doing ILE. But ILE will work with any stance width. I just like a nice wide hip width stance for the indoor demonstration drill because it makes the feedback very clear.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Is ILE the same as stomping hard on your inside foot then? How does it differ from a rugby (or basketball) sidestep? Would Jason Robinson be a natural even if he's never been on skis? |
Hi Bob. Love your posts by the way. Nice sense of humor. ILE is not like a sidestep because the feet remain in place. The only change is the amount of weight which is assigned to each. Not a stomp,,,, a very subtle downward push, like you're stepping onto thin ice. The aim is to maintain a very acute through the foot feel of the entire process of the the ski you're pushing down on rolling from it's outside edge to its inside edge.
I think a video of high quality ILE transitions being performed may be helpful here. In the link, go down to the freeskiing collection of videos and click on the one of Eric Guay. Very nice display of ILE.
http://www.youcanski.com/video/video_index_en.htm
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| skimottaret wrote: |
FastMan,
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Some very good ones in there Bob
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do you have any other gems you can share in addition to the ILE exercise (which i like the sound of) |
skimottaret, I have a million of them. All depends what you're shooting to accomplish. For starters though, take a look at this article. It's a collection of some early season warm up drills that are in fact good to refresh on frequently. And yes, that's your's truly in the montage at the top, performing an aft balance drill.
http://forums.modernskiracing.com/index.php?showtopic=46&st=0#entry164
We plan to video document many of these drills on our site this summer, with written descriptions of how to execute them, and what training purpose they're designed to serve. Eventually the goal is to have a complete video drill library available.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, the "ILE" is definitely not a sidestep. I does work very well, giving you a very early start to the turn and good drive throughout it - with the result that you come out of it going pretty fast. In your case I think you'd probably have to start with your feet a bit further apart than what seemed your normal skiing position, so the leverage to move your COM into the beginning of the new turn.
What do I do (other than finding more interesting slopes)? Lots of one foot stuff - either completely on one foot or practicing "charleston" and what veeeight calls "white pass" turns; short swings - get them faster and more dynamic; more recently ankle rolls and alternating narrow and wide stance carved turns.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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FastMan, Thanks great links i will be checking out those sites in detail and look forward to your video drill documentaries.
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ILE sounds to me like what I think/know of as pedalling (a bike)? See, it all comes back to how individuals learn
| fatbob wrote: |
| 2 Rollerblade wiggles (bit poncey but not downright embarassing) -looks very cool after the last air on mogul comps |
Ya think? I always think it makes them look a bit like a gay waiter 
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FastMan, Is it the camera angle or is Eric's inside ski coming slightly off the ground as he crosses from one side to another - especially those first few turns & one at the end?
Hehe, I'm doing MA on Eric Guay 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Is ILE the same as stomping hard on your inside foot then? How does it differ from a rugby (or basketball) sidestep? Would Jason Robinson be a natural even if he's never been on skis? |
Not sure it's called ILE, but that sidestep move works - it needs to be down the hill, rather that across it though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
or is Eric's inside ski coming slightly off the ground
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It's not a crime, you know!
That is a good habit to get into. It demonstrates that you are commited to the (new) outside ski early in the turn.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DOH! - note to self, go to last page before posting.
If you haven't played Rugby, and sidesteped, it will be hard to appreciate it; but that feeling is very much akin to what RJS had me doing at Cas towards the end of last year. If that was an ILE then the feel is very similar indeed.
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Oh, quick note. Rollerblade Turns.
All this talk of mincing. When done correctly - it does not involve the hip at all. I see many people trying to do this excercise, and they are wiggling the hip around like mad.
ONLY ankles and knees. Hip remains absolutely static.
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, Thanks. Principles of waist steering very interesting to someone who does a lot of Pilates. FastMan writes very clearly indeed. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| veeeight wrote: |
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or is Eric's inside ski coming slightly off the ground
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It's not a crime, you know!
That is a good habit to get into. It demonstrates that you are commited to the (new) outside ski early in the turn. |
Really, now that is an eye-opener for me as I've been under the impression that modern technique was towards a more 50/50 stance?
Once the new inside ski is engaged is it not harder to then pressure it if it's been off the snow/totally unweighted for a short period, as opposed to it being in contact with the snow all the time, albeit with minimum pressure applied?
I presume this is just an on-piste move as it would cause 'pedalling' problems off-piste? If so why develop a technique that can't be used on all terrain?
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK Time to bring back one of the skiing myths about 50:50.........
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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spyderjon, Mosha Marc, the sidestep works, but it's a completely different movement to ILE (yes eng_ch, ILE sounds to me like half of the "pedalling" idea - I was trying to remember what we call it, as I've never heard of ILE except here). Look at most of the faster racers at regional level or above and you'll see them lifting the inside ski on some turns, and a bit of a sidestep too - which is actually a small skate - mostly between the gates. Very useful for gaining a bit of extra speed - provided you do it smoothly - particularly on a flat part of the course, at the start, or in the final mad dash for the finishing line.
As for not employing "a technique that can't be used on all terrain" - choose the right horse for the course. "Pedalling" is vitally important for high performance on a hard smooth surface, but soft snow requires a much more two-footed action as it's a totally different environment. Your requirement to match your movements to what the surface is telling you is pretty similar though - it's just different inputs require different outputs.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 18-05-07 12:37; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| veeeight wrote: |
| OK Time to bring back one of the skiing myths about 50:50......... |
Yeh, I fully understand your 'myth' thread - I should maybe have used the term two-footed rather than 50/50.
veeeight, but actually lifting the inside ski off the ground? Wouldn't you get pulled on that if you did it in a instructor exam?
And I'll re-ask the same questions:
Once the new inside ski is engaged is it not harder to then pressure it if it's been off the snow/totally unweighted for a short period, as opposed to it being in contact with the snow all the time, albeit with minimum pressure applied?
Your myth thread says this would cause a problem in soft snow as I thought so why develop a technique that can't be used on all terrain?
Sorry to be a pain but this is important to me.
_________________
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GrahamN, thanks for that, I was responding to V8 while you were posting.
Ok I see it now. So what your saying is that this is really a racing thing & yes, I can see the benefits in that environment.
BTW I was struggling to get the ILE/side step movement but your description of it being a 'small skate' really works for me () & I know I'm made this move myself before, although I think somewhat unwittingly.
In the past I'd been practising getting committed on the new outside ski by slightly lifting the inside one - with the added 'balance test' benefit as described in V8's myth post. Now I'm trying to develop my off-piste skiing I currently working on a more even 'non pedalling' stance for soft snow so that's the horse I'm riding at the moment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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spyderjon, just to reiterate, unless I've completely misunderstood what's being talked about, ILE and the sidestep/skate are totally different things. I would think of the sidestep as an action as the very last movement coming out of a turn whereas the ILE would be the very first movement going into it - albeit a subtle distinction when you're making slalom shaped turns.
While I don't know so, I could well imagine a trainee instructor being pulled on lifting - AIUI it's really only something you should do once you've got the parallel carve sorted out, and then only when appropriate, or as part of a drill  .
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
DOH! - note to self, go to last page before posting.
If you haven't played Rugby, and sidesteped, it will be hard to appreciate it; but that feeling is very much akin to what RJS had me doing at Cas towards the end of last year. If that was an ILE then the feel is very similar indeed. |
Yep - this is what I was thinking
Moving right
Plant right foot
(Foot presumably rolls from outstep to instep)
Push off 45 deg to left front
Of couse in skiing it isn't a step as (being a lazy barsteward) I wouldn't dream of trying to lift either ski physically off the snow except where strictly necessary )
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GrahamN, that's not the side step I meant.
It's hard to decribe, but imagine you're on a right to left turn - so the majority of my weight has ended up on my right foot. As you finish the turn you find yourself in the ankles flexed/fully angulated bit just before starting to initiate the next turn.
Now I'm trying to get my hips/mass/gut over the skis and down the falline as far as I can from my feet and as fast as I can - not waiting for the skis, but launching down the falline. To do this I find myself driving off my left foot. It's that drive that feels a lot like a sidestep from other sports.
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spyderjon, We did lots of sidestep and ILE drills during the BASI course i was on but at 3 level you would be pulled up for lifting a ski during "exams".
the trainers were keen to see quick edge to edge movements at transition and hip crossover showing a good level of angulation at the waist while not banking or leaning, with the shoulders keeping level to the terrain. Outside ski dominance was drilled into us but retaining some pressure on the inner ski in variable terrain was of course needed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mosha Marc, OK...with you now (trying to cast mind back over 30 years to my last game of schoolboy rugger), and that sounds much more like the same kind of thing.
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spyderjon, ahem - thinking of the ice at the PSB ..... 2 footed skiing is a very bad idea when it's that slippery.
As an old school skier, lifting the inside foot and stepping onto the new ski is a natural thing for me. I'm deffo gettin gbetter and not doing it, but when I'm not thinking or paying attention to my skiing I'm afraid I revert. However there is a difference between a ski coming off the ground slightly because all the weight is on the other one, and actually makin gan effort to lift it. that can be a good exercise, but is a bad habit.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Peeps should be reading both this and the edges thread as the discusion is converging.
I do turns on one ski, where I literally pick the inside ski up...but again, you must be aware that there is a time and a place for it. One trick does not do it all.
Learn and evolve, thats my aim.......... but it can be slow...!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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spyderjon, Ideal is of course to keep both skis in contact with the snow.
During an exam - if the whole ski came off then there are issues to be sorted out. But if only the tail of the ski came off the snow, and it was quite apparent that this was as a result (as opposed to a deliberate action) of holding the inside ski back, then then examiners would see that this candidate was trying to get more early performance out of the outside ski, rather than any lateral or fore-aft balance issues.
The examiner would then have a call to make. Is he going to award marks for "pretty" skiing, or "functional performance" skiing 
Even in soft snow I still aim and have a dominant outside ski early in the turn. One of the few situations that I've encountered where this is not the case is true, bottomless powder, as in heli-skiing. All other situations I pretty much have a dominant outside ski.
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brian
brian
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JT, I'm reading them both. Feeling completely lost most of the time but reading them both nonetheless
I don't think I do an old school lift any more but I might be wrong. Anyone who's seen me ski remember ?
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You know it makes sense.
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Mosha Marc, you mean sort of "stand" on the old uphill ski/outside ski to initiate the turn?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, Yes I remember so well that I'll never ever forget it. Had plenty of icey stuff in Tignes at Xmas & after your lesson & also seeing JT's 'pick-up Pete' move () I handled it like a true pro.
veeeight, yes lifting only the tail of the ski is how JT does it & I was very impressed with the amount of grip he had on the super hard boilerplate LDA glacier at the PSB last year. Thanks for the explaination of what's ideal & what an examiner would look for as that fits with my view. I also understand what you're saying when you state that "even in soft snow I still aim and have a dominant outside ski early in the turn", as you can then add as much pressure to the inside ski during the rest of the turn as you see fit.
I can see both Mosha Marc's & GrahamN's different versions of their side step move & how that would work but I'm still can't visualise this ILE move at all - anyone care to give me a one paragraph guide written for a slow learner?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| Mosha Marc, you mean sort of "stand" on the old uphill ski/outside ski to initiate the turn? |
I think "stand" is the wrong word as it implies no movement. It's more trying to push down the hill off the old inside ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| eng_ch wrote: |
| Mosha Marc, you mean sort of "stand" on the old uphill ski/outside ski to initiate the turn? |
I think "stand" is the wrong word as it implies no movement. It's more trying to push down the hill off the old inside ski. |
OK, I grant you I didn't define my terms, but what you've written is what I mean by "stand" because you have to transfer (some) weight to that ski in order to push it, don't you?
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brian
brian
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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brian,
Great vid..
How do they get it to look that steep...???
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brian,
It was interesting seeing that drill, but I think he only did it because he hadn't learned how to carve properly on those old fashioned skis.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| skimottaret, Thanks. Principles of waist steering very interesting to someone who does a lot of Pilates. FastMan writes very clearly indeed. |
Hurtle,
Now you understand my comment on him being one of the best.... very coherent explanations... and as I use that stuff a lot to work out what I'm doing/not doing/trying to do etc I find him a very good instructor - even for my non-aggressive skiing style...
He also is very relaxing to ski with (although how that works when he has me skiing way faster than I'd chose, I'm not sure)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger, Indeed. Must be great to be taught by him in person.
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Hurtle,
Yes - he has inspired me to want do something I'd not really considered possible,
I see you are thinking of skiing with Easiski - she is also a great teacher, and I'd be pretty trusting of her suggestions for other instructors afetr having a lesson with Fred on her say so...
As an idea of what great instructors these 2 are... I believe Fastman is sending Easiski my report card after he finishes writing it (hint)... and I know they communicated re my skiing earlier also... This is ABOVE and beyond what I'd expect... shows their dedications to students improvement...
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FAQ
