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What Video Camera should I buy?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar, thanks for the explanation rob i wasnt sure how the higer resolution DV tape based camera CCDs used the information. what you said in your last post seems to make sense.

if the video quality isnt any better due to the 3 MPix CCD sounds as though you are just paying more to have a decent stills camera. I have a tiny 5Meg Nikon still camera i take when skiing so am thinking if i am out with the video recorder i am out to take video not stills so whay pay over the odds for resolution i cant use on the video.

This however has got me thinking, a few posters have stated that HDD cameras have poorer resolution than MIniDV. In terms of quality how do the low end HDD cameras with 1 M Pixel resolution compare? HD sounds like it has 4M pixel resolution, what is the effective resolution of tape based systems.

If it is only marginally better than HDD i may go with HDD for editing flexibility and storage
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob, the answer to the PAL/NTSC conversion on the fly is "no".

Many people don't understand the issues related to 25fps vs 29.97fps, 50Hz vs. 60Hz, 625/525 psuedo PAL60 etc.

As someone who has a foot on each side of the pond so to speak, I have tremendous difficulties with colleagues with NTSC cameras, have fallen foul of editing software that won't mix the two, and in writing DVD's have also come a cropper with 25fps/29.97fps.

You need to decide - PAL or NTSC - and stick with that. It's not just a matter of video output standards.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
veeeight wrote:
You need to decide - PAL or NTSC - and stick with that. It's not just a matter of video output standards.

That's my view as well. Occasionally I use NTSC footage cut into a PAL project, and it's a royal pain in the proverbial as I have to convert the NTSC into PAL before I can do anything sensible with it. As I don't have a hardware convertor I can't do this in real time, so have to spend ages using a software plugin for Final Cut Pro on my Mac.
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skimottaret wrote:
rob@rar, thanks for the explanation rob i wasnt sure how the higer resolution DV tape based camera CCDs used the information. what you said in your last post seems to make sense.

if the video quality isnt any better due to the 3 MPix CCD sounds as though you are just paying more to have a decent stills camera. I have a tiny 5Meg Nikon still camera i take when skiing so am thinking if i am out with the video recorder i am out to take video not stills so whay pay over the odds for resolution i cant use on the video.

This however has got me thinking, a few posters have stated that HDD cameras have poorer resolution than MIniDV. In terms of quality how do the low end HDD cameras with 1 M Pixel resolution compare? HD sounds like it has 4M pixel resolution, what is the effective resolution of tape based systems.

If it is only marginally better than HDD i may go with HDD for editing flexibility and storage


If you're happy to carry two cameras then probably no need to consider stills performance of your camcorder.

The video resolution of HDD based camcorders is the same as tape based DV, ie 768x576 (not sure about stills performance), although they use a different compression technology to squeeze as much footage onto the hard disc. Just so long as your video editing software can cope with whatever compression is used by the HDD camcorder I don't think you need worry about resolution between tape based and HDD based camcorders. A bigger issue is whether/how you intend to archive the footage you transfer from your HDD camcorder - you might need to factor in a bit of extra money for a very large hard disc (and a backup unit) at home which will be dedicated to storing your video.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar, good point on the computer storage. 30 gigs only holds several hours so you definately would need a massive hard drive to store footage or i guess you can burn DVD's for archiving but then you might as well have tapes

Tapes it is then (probably everyone will say i told so so but it does seem to be a complex subject)

a mid priced miniDV with decent optical zoom and image stabilisation, a wide angle lens seems to be the way for me. Downside, low quality stills and no AV input or pay twice as much and get digital camera capability and the opportunity to spend more money and time researching helmet cams wink Cool

Any votes for free editing software packages?
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skimottaret, a big hard disc would be much cheaper than burning DVDs in the long run.

Software? Buy a Mac and use iMovie & iDVD Wink
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think the Sony HC96 is a good bet in that price range if you want to keep your options open with the helmet cam (which I would for skiing). It's got both AVin for the external lens and, just as important, a LANC socket for remote switching (essential for practical use of a helmet cam). Very few other new cameras have both these features.

None of the hard disk based cameras I looked at had either AVin or LANC support. But I find miniDV tapes are convenient anyway as they provide an effective backup after downloading to your PC.

Video resolution is effectively 2MP and the optical lens on the HC96 is excellent quality (more important than sensor resolution). It's very good in low light conditions, due to the relatively large CCD sensor. It also has image stabilisation, which seems very effective even at wide angle.

Not sure about the PAL v NTSC details, but I do know that the HC96 is sold in specific PAL and NTSC versions. Mine is the HC96e (PAL version). I would NOT expect it to play tapes directly through a NTSC TV and vice-versa. It probably doesn't matter if you're downloading to a PC, which can read either format. But I've only ever worked with PAL tapes so far and never attempted to convert into NTSC format.

I bought my HC96e in Feb from www.purelygadgets.co.uk for just over £300, but I think they've sold out now.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 4-05-07 12:24; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I second the Mac iMovie / iDVD route. So easy to use and very effective.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
uktrailmonster wrote:


Video resolution is effectively 2MP and the optical lens on the HC96 is excellent quality



I'm not sure I understand the above statement. A video camera needs around 400,000 (0.4MP) pixels for PAL quality video.

The HC96 looks like a good camera, I would buy one. Mechanical image stabilization, excellent CCD and Carl Zeiss lens should make for good images up to the limit of the 10x zoom.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-DCR-HC96-Handycam-camcorder-Megapixel/dp/B000E3U4KY?tag=amz07b-21

At 300 quid we are also 200 pounds under budget.

Now does anyone have reccomendations for a good tripod with a fluid movement for pans etc?
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davidof, get the heaviest tripod you are willing to carry and find a good fluid head afterwards, maybe look for a manfrotto tripod
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skimottaret,

Moviemaker is easy to use and free with XP.

I couple that with Virtualdub ( which I think is free ) for splicing files and it has various compression options but most jobs can be done well enough through MM. its the time you put in rather than the software

Most playbacks I run through the camera to the TV and the cams have a an edit facility but I have never used it.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
davidof, do you feel 10x is a problem for ski videos? I can take basic video with my stills camera but the lack of zoom is fustrating. example footage here
http://youtube.com/v/bnwaO3KtoOU&mode=related&search=

i like the HC96 as well but the other option i am looking at is the HC48 slightly smaller and with 25x but without AVinput and the 3M stills but 2/3 the price.

Rob recons that over 10x and you cant hold the camera still enough to take reasonable shots. If over 10x zoom is not a must have feature i will probably go with the 96....

On sware I would love to go back to Macs (i owned a Lisa back in the day Cool ) but sadly we are a windows based home now.
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uktrailmonster, sold out in most UK shops but a cheap USA source for PAL equipment is

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=1918&A=details&Q=&sku=423280&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

$600 plus shipping to uk $50 (or get your brother to smuggle it in for you Razz )
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
JT, will check out the sware thanks.....
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skimottaret wrote:
davidof, do you feel 10x is a problem for ski videos? I can take basic video with my stills camera but the lack of zoom is fustrating. example footage here
http://youtube.com/v/bnwaO3KtoOU&mode=related&search=

i like the HC96 as well but the other option i am looking at is the HC48 slightly smaller and with 25x but without AVinput and the 3M stills but 2/3 the price.

Rob recons that over 10x and you cant hold the camera still enough to take reasonable shots. If over 10x zoom is not a must have feature i will probably go with the 96....

On sware I would love to go back to Macs (i owned a Lisa back in the day Cool ) but sadly we are a windows based home now.


Yes things do get a bit shaky when you get to 25x end of the zoom, it is nice to have with good image stabilization and some way to support the camera like a monopod.

Is the helmet cam option important to you? I've always promised to buy myself a helmet cam for my sony, the thing that has always held me back is carrying a helmet cam battery pack, that and the few times I might use a helmet cam. Still I've seen some nice films.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
davidof, Good point 2MP is misleading when quoting video resolution. 2MP is the effective resolution of the CCD sensor in video mode, not the final output resolution.

Relating CCD sensor resolution to PAL horizontal and vertical line resolution is not as simple as it may at first seem i.e. a 0.4MP CCD sensor will not give you maximum PAL resolution.

Sony HC96 2MP effective video sensor = 443 x 400 line PAL output (about the best there is on the market for miniDV)
Sony HC46 1MP effective video sensor = 397 x 338 line PAL output

One of the biggest advantages of the higher resolution HC96 is it's low light performance. Not to mention the much higher quality lens.


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 4-05-07 14:13; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
davidof, cant see myself taking along a tripod for the stuff i would shoot so it sounds like a 10x with wide angle lense will do the job just fine.

basically it is an extra 100 quid for the better stills and helmet cam option. cant say that it is important now but if i get into filming it could be.. as you say you can grab some nice shots with that setup.

uktrailmonster, not sure about the low light performance as the HC48 seems to have the same spec as the 96 but i would think that with a double size sensor that should help improve image quality.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
davidof wrote:


Is the helmet cam option important to you? I've always promised to buy myself a helmet cam for my sony, the thing that has always held me back is carrying a helmet cam battery pack, that and the few times I might use a helmet cam. Still I've seen some nice films.


I solved that very problem neatly with a Sony compatible camcorder battery that has an extra output directly to the helmet camera.

See here:-

http://www.xtremerecall.com/
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skimottaret wrote:


uktrailmonster, not sure about the low light performance as the HC48 seems to have the same spec as the 96 but i would think that with a double size sensor that should help improve image quality.


I assume by same spec you mean same features? But the bigger sensor on the HC96 gives much less digital noise in low light. See the reviews on www.camcorderinfo.com between HC96 and HC46 (same sensor as the HC48). That alone would be worth the extra cost, but the helmet cam capability makes it a no-brainer for me.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret, Don't forget, for your extra 100 quid, you also get a much better lens and hence higher quality image. It's not all about pixel counting.
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uktrailmonster, i did have a look at the general reviews but had not picked up on the comparisons in the message board. sounds like the 96 is a better video so its a HC96 for me and what the heck may want to get a helmet cam as well

thanks all for the tips and info time to go shopping.......
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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Good choice. See my link above for the best in helmet cams. Other oprions available in the UK are:-

www.actioncameras.co.uk
www.dogcamsport.co.uk
www.twenty20camera.com (CMOS sensor lower quality than others)

I chose the xtreme recall helmet cam from the US because it has by far the best integrated wiring loom, including direct Sony AV connector and single battery. The UK ones all look like a dog's dinner of wires, connectors and batteries by comparison.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
uktrailmonster wrote:
The UK ones all look like a dog's dinner of wires, connectors and batteries by comparison.


That is one of the biggest reasons why I don't use my helmetcam much, too much faffing around with wires, extra battery packs etc. I'll take a look at that batt link you posted and see what can do to minimise the wiring mess.
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FenlandSkier, it would be worth speaking to xtreme recall about making up a custom wiring loom for your existing camera. Their 2 in 1 battery packs are only available to fit on Sony camcorders at the moment. I don't think there's a picture of it on their website yet, but imagine a standard camcorder battery pack with an extra power connector on the side for your helmet cam. So no need for an extra battery pack. Wiring looks like this, but without the second battery:-


http://www.xtremerecall.com/cable_comparison.htm
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