 Poster: A snowHead
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I found myself spending more time than I expected with the school group in Les 2 Alpes last week. I attached myself to a group of "improvers" led by their ESF instructor M Raymond Rene.
What a legend! This man was a total delight. He got all the kids' names straight away; was always concerned for their welfare. First time on the T-bar he was matching kids for height and weight and I confessed to my 110Kg (lardy status). He said I didn't look it! What a nice man! This led to a discussion on the T-bar as to whether he was older than me. I am 79 he says! Well, he did look 60.
Conversations about his experiences in the war ensued. Oddly, he said he was 16 then. Quick calculations on my part worked out he was referring to 1944 and the maquis rising against the Nazis. "Were you in the Resistance then?" I asked. "No, my father was, but I just carried guns and ammunition around the mountains, and that doesn't count." Well knowing a bit about what the Nazis did round there I think that counts.
He told me he likes working with English school groups because the English kids are respectful of other cultures, polite and orderly.
I take my hat off to you M Rene.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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some of the best instruction I had, many years ago, was also from an ESF instructor, Gilles Galvani, who was also based at Les Deux Alpes. Maybe there's something in the air there that creates good instructors.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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davidof, Very interesting material, thanks. I had already found your site because googling "Oisins resistance" brings it up.
You might be interested to know that M Rene told me he first skied the resort in 1945 when he was dropped on the glacier by a light aeroplane with skis. It is a long way down off-piste!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Chris Bish, nice to know these guys are out there. I had a very good instructor in ESF Belle Plagne - had been around for years, learnt more on the one day I had him than the rest of the week I reckon (though there was only me and my wife, and she went back to the hotel halfway through!). Now if only I could remember his name... everyone else in the resort knew it... ah yes, the ESF site helps - Henri Broche. Messieurs, chapeaux!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It's great that you found such a good instructor and had such a positive experience
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| Quote: |
He told me he likes working with English school groups because the English kids are respectful of other cultures, polite and orderly.
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How lovely, my 5 year old daughter's ESF instructor (in Le Grand Bornand) told me that English children are not capable of listening or taking orders, she then failed her on her end of week test 
Maybe she should try dishing out encouragement instead of orders!
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marmalade, My 12 year old son is dyspraxic so the fact that he can ski is a minor miracle. This didn't stop his ESF instructor from failing him on his end of week test as he "did too many snowploughs" - my son was devastated as, as he said between sobs, he had tried so, so hard. The instructor knew of his difficulties by the way. 
As you say, encouragement and reward for (huge) effort would go so much further to make children who find the whole thing difficult, feel it IS worthwhile
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Anniepen, I thought they had now stopped the passing and failing thing.
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| Quote: |
I thought they had now stopped the passing and failing thing.
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Unfortunately not, I had to fob my daughter off with a snowman badge as they wouldn't let her have the premier etoile. I did, however make a complaint about the instructor which made me feel better but not my daughter.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't know if my resort in Switzerland (which are part of the red and white clad instructor groups) ever fails kids, but I do know that every child in ski school, apart from the very young who only got down the slope on the last morning like my son (who still passed the 'ski garden'). Gets the chance to 'race' on the last afternoon. They have a large prize giving at 3pm and every kid that skied down the slope, perfectly, missing gates, falling, missing the finish etc. gets a mention, a clap and a 'standard' medal, with the three fastest getting on the podium for a cheer, all kids get sweets and race cards. I think that sort of encouragement is worth loads. It's a shame that not all schools seem to realise this from the above comments.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think the (bad) reputation of ESF is intact. I've had MUCH MUCH better instruction in Bulgaria but the vin chaud is crap 
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I was also at LDA the same time as Chris Bish and my 11 year old daughter did the Etoile D'Or with the ESF. I booked her in for the English class but as she was the only one it was understandable that she was merged with the French class (although I made sure with the ESF Director and the Instructor that it would be in English also). She had superb tuitition (although the size of the class was too large) and passed (based on timings and assessments). I spoke to her instructor and also observed a few bits of her lessons in passing on the slopes and although the majority of the class was French he explained everything in the same detail in his excellent English also as well as French. No complaints at all and excellent value but I fully accept that it can be pot luck dictated by the Instructor allocated to that particular class.
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You know it makes sense.
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How do the ESF rate when used for 'private' tuition ( small family groups was my thinking)?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mitchell, it depends very much on the instructor. Try asking here for any recommendations for the resort you wish to go to.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The badge sysstem used by the ESF and the ESI in france - different titles - same thing, is taken very seriously. It's an exam and you either pass or fail. Here the examiners in the ESF are not the instructors who teach the kids all week ( to eliminate bias). I have had kids absolutely distraught because they'd failed whichever one it was which is why I just give certs at the end of the week based on what they can actually do. However, if they don't improve from one year to the next they won't get the next cert.
Encouragement is fine and right in the lessons, but an exam is an exam. I don't like the system - you can always take your kids out of that system and go to another ski school, or just not go on the Friday.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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we had a fantastic esf instructor in morillon for my 2 girls. they were different stages but he swiftly worked out their needs and they improved incredibly. His name is Michel Auboiron & he was lovely with my 4 yr old who always cries for a minute when I leave her. The Morillon esf lot are generally v. kind as are the lifties there who always slow the lift down & come to help you get kids on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, Its not PC but I agree that the badges must reflect actual ability, otherwise they are pointless. It must also help placing kids in the appropriate classes. Tough if you fail, but then that is life. We had 5 kids in lessons, three were awarde a higher badge than the other 2. This year the other 2 tried their hardest to catch up. They failed, but boy did they have fun trying.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote]I have had kids absolutely distraught because they'd failed whichever one it was which is why I just give certs at the end of the week based on what they can actually do. However, if they don't improve from one year to the next they won't get the next cert. quote]
Thats a great idea - the kids are in no doubt as to their achievements & the exam ceases to be 'yet another exam' - I like them to forget about school & enjoy themselves skiing (though learning too) & this sounds about right!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Do the ESF ask for proof of passing previous levels before a kid can join a group lesson? If not, what does it matter to them whether they 'pass' or 'fail' a kid? The only perceivable risk is giving someone the impression they've done far better than they have, so they enrol on a course they are not yet ready for next time. However, skiing instruction is not really comparable to most other things as there are so many factors, such as the next skiing lesson being a whole year later for many!. It would be more realistic to have a list of techniques on the card that could be ticked off to show what was achieved.
When I was in Serbia, EVERY lesson participant got a course completion certificate and each instructor wrote on it the level of the course and a subjective grade indicating how well you'd done - but there was no published scale, so no pass/fail issue. For most people it's more about saying you took part and lasted the week!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Helen Beaumont, No - what made it worse was every other child in the class (all French apart from my other son aged 7) all passed and got their premier etoile - we got him a Snowman badge and told him it was a special award for people who had made a great effort but not quite got everything right. As easiski, says, there DOES have to be improvement or there's no point, but Joe's improvement over the week had been huge, regardless of his difficulties. and to us it seemed very harsh to have no recognition of that
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Anniepen, I really feel for you with this - I hope he realises how well he really did - my eldest daughter is huge for her age & can be quite uncoordinated at certain times (she was tested for dyspraxia once) - so when she does well, it feels like passing a big milestone.
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rpft, Thank you, appreciated  He was so distraught at - in his eyes - failing. However, he's an optimistic chap and with the snowman badge, some made-up stuff about it being a 'special award' and lots of assurance that we couldn't be any prouder of him, he bucked up and actually prefers his badge to his brother's! No lasting harm to his confidence, but that was the worry - a dyspraxic child has to try so much harder for less results that there has to be some pay-off or they'll simply stop trying. Next year's skiing will tell!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Anniepen wrote: |
| some made-up stuff about it being a 'special award' |
Was it really "made-up"? From what you have said, I reckon it really was a special award and he quite definitely deserved it. Cheers!
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TallTone, Thank you It's only because he tries as hard as he does and wants to succeed (and also wants us and his brother to be proud of him) that he is able to carry out co-ordinated tasks, so yes, well deserved! We do accept that there is a need for uniformity in tests and that, by the letter of the law and the ESF rules, the instructor was right, but some leeway would have been good for the largely French instruction (despite being promised English teaching), the ability to decipher that and apply it, and the overall great improvement. Even if he DID too many snowploughs, I've been skiing for 25 years, am not dyspraxic and STILL snowplough on occasion Did I just admit that HERE?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Anniepen, and where would some us be without the ability to snowplough - me?.....sitting on the chairs at the cafe I suspect!!
I think your son did great and provided he knows that his parents are proud of his achievements then I should think this is the main thing - I know it is with my kids, and even with me. Even though I'm 38 I still want my parents to have pride in what I do!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Anniepen, nothing wrong with snow plough turns, they can on occasion be very useful
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We have had group and private lessons with ESF at Courchevel 1850 and at Tignes and without exception, they have all been fantastic. Unfortunately I only have the first names of the instructors in Courchevel but they provided us with much better instruction then we had with New Generation. A few years ago we booked private lessons with New Gen and they managed to provide us with different instructors for each lesson. The instructors were fine but a proportion of each lesson was spent going over old ground so we were not moving on as quickly as we would have if we had the same instructor.
We were out in Tignes before Christmas and we had great instruction from Anna Lamour (ESF) who gave the three of us (two adults and a thirteen year old) fantastic lessons.
Maybe we have just been lucky but the ESF lessons we have had over seven years have been of a very high standard. The most disappointing lessons we have had were with New Generation at Courchevel 1850. We always try to have lessons with the local ski school. In Murren the local instuctor gave us enough knowledge and confidence to get us all down from the Schilthorn (our daughter was 12 and she had only been skiing a couple of weeks) without any problems.
We always have much more fun with the local instructors.
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You know it makes sense.
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I had some great lessons with Fred at Les Deux Alpes ESF....
I'm hardly the easiest student to teach... need some original thought of how to teach put in from time to time....
Anniepen, I can assure you Fastman snow ploughs regularly when he feels the need (like slowing down for me ) ... and has no qualms about doing so... Now he is a DH racer and coached DH racers....
Ditto the WC racer I had a lesson with in Livigno - DH/SG racer - seemed to have to issue with chucking in a snow plough when he wished to....
The Ski school at Thredbo in australia does have a passport for the kids in ski school....
they get ticked off each level they pass .... IIRC the lowest level is being able to stop... then one for making a single turn... etc etc.... they also have a certifictae for the kids... and were kind enough to supply one for the 40+ year old downs syndrome lady I helped learn to ski...
I would have thought the ski school could have used a computer to make a subsitute certificate rather than issue the badge he did not earn....
You should look into registering son as a disabled skier - he may qualify in some places - my guess would be look at Canada or USA for that... they offfer some very reduced deals for skiers that meet their criteria... and you would get private tuition for him at a great rate with an instructor trained to deal with disabilities like his.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The Snowlife Awards have 11 grades in total. The requirements are rigorous (including racing requirements for the top levels), but the grading is fine enough that most kids should be able to go up a grade each time, for the first few.
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Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger, Worth thinking about, thank you. As for the ski school making a certificate - doubt it occurred to them. He did too many snowploughs and that, for them, was the end of it. The snowman badge was offered when I asked did they have anything WE could award him, for his effort. We'll know for next time, but not going with ESF and entering into the award system, denies my other son the chance of winning HIS badges, which he absolutely loved. Sigh! Who'd be a parent
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