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They are the BEST! (At Vitello Tonnato)

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
You know, the thing that worries me the most is that Spyderman carries his BASI badge with him whilst skiing...... NehNeh
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Well ....
the Parisiens ski how they drive in Paris
The italians have no concept of queuing
The brits are rude and boorish
The dutch are too big
The russians and polish are not used to the numbers on the pistes
The germans are pushy
The beligans eat mayonnaise
The spanish ski in large groups talking to each other
The danish all have upturned noses (true)
.............

all of the above can be true, but the truth of the matter is that most people ski badly, most people ski too fast, and we need to be able to do something about reckless skiing. Unfortunately, in France at the moment we can't. Skiing with slow or nervous skiers can be very frightening.

I don't think we have a particular worst behaved nationality here in winter, but in summer ..... NO CONTEST .... the italians win every time. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Crikey we are all a little touchy aren't we? Maybe we're Americans? In which case I suggest that this week's recommended reading starts with the definitions of humour, irony, banter and xenophobia (more about that later).

Helen Beaumont, thank you. I was. Even if I was also passing an observation in all semi-seriousness.

David Goldsmith, just for the avoidance of any doubt...

* No near miss.
* So, no hand wringing.
* and clearly no lack of guidance Twisted Evil
* but, yes (thank you), complete honesty.

David Goldsmith, Martin Nicholas, (and guilty by association) fatirishman, from dictionary.com:

xen·o·pho·bi·a /ˌzɛnəˈfoʊbiə, ˌzinə-/ [zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-]
"an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

So none of that here then.

No unreasonableness, simply expressing an rational opinion (based on an admittedly limited set of observations), no fear, no hatred.

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "they are the BEST?" (at chaotic skiing). Come on chaps, the PC drones are already contributing terribly to the Bush-Blair axis of fear's control of your lives. Let SH's rule free!

For the record I love Italy and the Italians. I would prefer to ski on wider slopes when they're around however. And I don't approve of their dress sense on skis. But give me a Vitello Tonnato, Tagliata and a bottle of Barbera de Piemonte any day.

Hey ho, I'm off skiing he he he (via Ikea, clearly my penance for being such a bad boy on here).
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Ah, Vitello Tonnato, now when can I squeeze a trip to Italy into the diary........................ Very Happy
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
veeeight, It's in my wallet, credit card sized licence, along with the CSIA one. It was only the fact that this guy kept telling me that he was right and I didn't know what I was talking about, that I proved the point.
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Spyderman, I'm a true believer in that if you've worked damn hard for something then why shouldn't you flaunt it when it can do you service. I've been prepared to pay for my RSC membership out of my own pocket when its been required in the past, but I worked 5 years to get it so why let it lapse. When it does me service I quote it and use it and am proud of it. Good for you for carrying your card as a matter of course and not being afraid to use it to good effect
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Xenophobia You can take the man out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the man.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Italians are (in general) crazy drivers (and perhaps crazy skiers too), but they make the best food - no question Smile
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Sestriere last week. The Italians drive like nutters no matter what the road conditions. They ski pretty quick too. All of the ski shops seemed to sell nothing but Race skis and everyboby was using them. We had 60cm of powder and I was skiing my Dynastar 8800's, the locals looked at them as if they were something from another planet. Puzzled

No question on the best food though. Very Happy
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
David Murdoch, If we're going to pedantic about the use of the word xenophobia, then just change it for prejudice, or national stereotyping. It still does not sound much better.

OK, I admit I'm a mixed up soul, Irish living in the UK, parents in France, Italian partner, and most of my closest friends are German where I spend the majority of my spare time.

National stereotyping bugs me big time, it deemed to be acceptable by some but any prejudice based on insubstantial evidence, purely to catogorise folk is wrong. Let me illustrate a point, I ski with my German friends at least once a year. Last year we had a ski guide for a day, who over lunch was actually having a go at the "Inselaffen", the Brits. Now how embarassed was he when I piped up I live with the aforementioned apes, and found them to be generally very pleasant? He was suitably apologetic, but he would never have made the comment if he knew previously.

There are plenty of stereotypes out there about the Brits, all the women are ugly, the food is bad, London is full of smog, and everyone is terribly polite. Now that's not the UK I recognise, and would make your blood at least simmer surely?

So put yourself in his shoes, would you happily make any of the comments here to say an Italian, a Russian or a Pole?

Sun speak, has pervaded what is generally a very tolerant culture and is deemed to be acceptable in some quarters, but it's nothing but prejudice for those who are unable to judge indivduals on their own traits and fall back to catagorising them on something as simple as where they were per chance born.
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fatirishman, I agree that stereotyping by nationality is wrong, but this thread is not really doing that, it is not stereotyping an entire nation, it is simply stereotyping a sporting (ski) attribute by nationality, the same way that national styles of rugby is stereotyped (Irish passion, Welsh style ?, English brute force, NZ masterclass, SA physicality). The same goes for footy with Italian/French/English/Scandinavian styles. Ok so this thread should perhaps be based upon who has the best/politest attributes on the ski slope (as someone else suggested) but some nation would still come bottom of the list. I am sure if there was a thread of who are the worst 'culinary exponents' - us Brits would win that hands down. I would not take that as a prejudice but simply as someones opinion as to a single attribute of Brits. If this was a thread that said all Brits are ugly, Italians handsome, Spanish lazy, Germans rude, Welsh trolls, then I would agree with you. But it is not Very Happy
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Fair point

I'm prone to 80 minutes of xenophobia on the dot every year. Next time it will get an outing will be at Twickenham next year Blush

Don't get the - "some nation would come bottom of the list" though - it's still lumping the attributes of individuals with a nation that do not necessarily correlate.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
fatirishman, national stereotyping is only bad if you a) apply it literally to every single person b) consider the differences to be a bad thing.

Personally I like the mixture of cultures across Europe. I've worked alongside Italians, French, Spanish, Germans, Dutch and many others from around the world and it's clear that culturally there are many differences. The national stereotypes are just caricatures of thoses cultural differences. No need to get all pc about it really.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
fatirishman, you should have heared my xenophobic rantings during the Leicester v Ospreys game on Sunday - referee, opposition, our own players etc ......... Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
easy solution, ski at the sides of the slopes, most crazy poor skiiers are not confident enough to ski near the edges.

Also get up high as quickly as possible, I find most of the crazy skiers to be around mid level on the mountain

Oh yah try not to ski back to base at 4-4.30 as its generally bedlam, best to take last lift up and stop for a chat, smoke, and then ski down (try not to crash as less likely hood of piste patrol)
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 brian
brian
Guest
easiski wrote:
The brits are rude and boorish


Except the Scots clearly, we're drunken and boorish wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

less likely hood of piste patrol


Apart from on snowHead 's wink are regular Piste Patrols a reality for safety in the larger resorts or is it just last thing at night? If their regular I would think its quite reassuring as well as good for monitoring skiing behaviour to know that someone is going to ski past on the look out for problems every so often.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
fatirishman, I think you're taking this thread a little too seriously! And yes - I would and do tell italians they are noisy rude and don't know how to queue (in italian - one of my 4 languages!) I've just been to a party where there wree instructors from almost everywhere in europe - we all get along fine! However, there's no harm in having a bit of fun, so long as the "rosebifs" also take the pi** out of themselve/ourselve. The whole world is getting too damn PC for words!!!! Shocked Shocked rolling eyes rolling eyes
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fatirishman, I have also seen easiski, shout at a bunch of kids trying to jump the queue on the t-bar on LDA glacier. You will also find many derogatory comments, some justified, some not, about the English on here too.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yes, sure some of the comments are justified if aimed at individuals! But it's frankly lazy to say all Italians queue jump for example...... I've made my point previously and I'll shut up now, but please bear in mind these really are the stereotypes that Goebbels played upon and I find them dangerous. I had a meeting with some neo nazis in Leipzig 8 years ago that was testament to that. Yes there is messing around, but there is a line, where you choose to draw it is up to you.
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I really don't like extending these arguments as they tend to divert off into the same unpleasant hyperspace that e-mail arguments end up in. But I will not sit here and be accused of, inter alia, racism, nazism, xenophobia, pedantry, laziness or prejudice.

fatirishman, if you are going to write inflammatory or derogatory comments, please get your facts and language correct?

I was not pedantic. You were using the wrong word.

I was not being xenophobic. I was simply expressing a cultural generalisation.

I was not being racist. For a start "Italian" is not a "race". Especially in that mixed up area of the world where the locals can quite easily and often do claim cultural and genetic lineage reaching into Germany, Austria, France, Switzerland, Italy and their own particular little semi-autonomous region. Generally choosing the antecedence that works most in their favour at the particular moment.

I was not being lazy. Cultural generalisations are a part and parcel of describing cultural norms. Italian (for example) culture and social development typically lend themselves to chaotic driving and skiing. Also to a tremendously warm and welcoming social and familial culture, a deep appreciation of food and good company and a somewhat (especially amongst the older generations) chauvinistic attitude to women at least when viewed from behind an anglo-american liberal paradigm. It would be lazy, woolly and softminded to suggest that a generalisation precluded any variation amongst individuals.

I wasn't being prejudiced as I was making a cultural judgement based on available evidence.

I was certainly and absolutely not advocating nazism. Your insinuation is offensive.

Cultural harmony should at least include recognising and celebrating cultural differences.

And yes, I have said similar comments to Italians. If you can't laugh at your self (myself included) who can you laugh at?
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David Murdoch, as far as I was concerned you didn't have to defend your comments, but you've done so, both elequently and comprehensively, good post.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
easiski wrote:
Well ....
the Parisiens ski how they drive in Paris
The italians have no concept of queuing
The brits are rude and boorish
The dutch are too big
The russians and polish are not used to the numbers on the pistes
The germans are pushy
The beligans eat mayonnaise
The spanish ski in large groups talking to each other
The danish all have upturned noses (true)
.............

all of the above can be true, but the truth of the matter is that most people ski badly, most people ski too fast, and we need to be able to do something about reckless skiing. Unfortunately, in France at the moment we can't. Skiing with slow or nervous skiers can be very frightening.

I don't think we have a particular worst behaved nationality here in winter, but in summer ..... NO CONTEST .... the italians win every time. Laughing Laughing Laughing


Laughing
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David@traxvax, thank you. Happy
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David Murdoch wrote:

I had one particular moment where I nearly hit someone as I anticipated the rhythm of their skiing, went to avoid them (giving plenty of space) and they planted/crossed over/anticipated to turn left (as I expected) then they managed to swing wildly right. I have no idea how they accomplished it, but it was nearly all ending in tears.


What ever you say he is the downhill skier, if you nearly hit him then it is you that is skiing too fast. Also so David but this is a highly offensive post and where as I do not believe in anyway you are racist etc etc but I do feel that it is wrong to label any single nation as being at fault for bad skiing.

Bad skiing, lack of manners at lifts\queues, lack of awareness on the piste, skiing way to fast, being drunk on the piste, being stoned on the piste, or any of the other bad habits is something which is individual and certainly not a national trait. Some people are polite and responsible, some are not it is as simple as that.
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plectrum, deary me, here we go again.

Maybe I should have omitted the word "nearly". It was not really "nearly" at all. I avoided him by a wide margin. I do not, as a rule, ski beyond my abilities. I mentioned the incident only because it was astonishingly random. And I still don't understand how the individual involved managed to do all the right things to turn one way, and yet end up going the other (without falling over). I suspect they surprised themselves too.

I was not skiing too fast.

This is not an offensive post.

It didn't really nearly end in tears. Although this thread is rapidly heading that way. My heartfelt apologies for inadvertent hyperbole.

Celebrate Italian culture. I didn't say they were bad skiers. Just rather erratic - and if you spend any significant time on Italian autoroutes you will appreciate the interesting national take on lane discipline.

I mean, the white line on the autoroute is there so you can centre you car on it isn't it?

My better half is half Italian (well, Aostan anyway) and she agrees with me. She's half French too and my, don't we laugh at French bureaucracy. As do most of the French. Do you know how many signatures you need to open a French bank account?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Yah mate I dont ski Italy never have and so I probably come across less Italian skiers but still I kinda feel some people are complete dicks on the mountains and some are respectful. I don't think though it is necessarily down to nationality but again until I ski Italy I hold the final opinion. One small thing though is when in Rome ski like the Romans do!

Also the guy probably nearly ended up infront of you because he was crap! One thing I always remeber on the piste is how bad I am at skiing and i've been skiing for a number of years and I ski challenging routes so god knows how poor other people may well be!

At the end of the day it is a mountain i.e very steep and dangerous and there are hundreds of lunatics careering about on it!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
plectrum, firstly apologies if I came back at you too hard. Too true, there are always going to be idiots. I have to work hard at not being one myself most of the time.

What I found most interesting is that for most of the week I spent my time either snowploughing in front of the party or doing slow turns, as the girls aren't (yet) very quick - although well done Monique at Scuola Sci Champoluc for bringing them nicely on - and just how disconcerting having some lairy, partially uncontrolled individual ski fast past you. On a number of occasions fast past and over the backs of my skis.

I am afraid that overtaking someone by skiing over the backs of their skis is a tad closer than I'd like...
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
David Murdoch, Firstly this is not intended as criticism and I cannot see anything racist or offensive in what you have written but:

Have you skied slowly with the kids in other resorts recently? I ask this because it is my impression that in recent years skiers as a whole have got worse in their manners and overtaking behaviour. I do not really notice it when skiing by myself but notice it big time when skiing with young children. I was wondering if your noticing the bad behaviour is more of a function of who you are skiing with rather than where you are skiing.
I haven't skied much in Italy but it can be a problem in both France and Switzerland.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
T Bar, I haven't, but I agree with you (and quite take your point). It was amplified skiing with the girls but quite evident skiing "free". Definitely worse in that part of Italy. I don't recall the issue in the Dolomites but that was late season and only for a day break.

In mitigation, a lot of the local runs are quite narrow, but to me that means you modify your behaviour...
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DM,

As I said, I sympathise with you, what with my 'issue' with the French Women. Pistes can be very dangerous and I think more people will end up in court and more people will die off-piste trying to get away from the mayhem.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
David Murdoch, Did I ever say you were advocating naziism? No I did not.... I said that Goebbels played on stereotyping and I found it to that effect dangerous. That is historical fact not conjecture. "Nie Wieder" means we should take some heed of that.

There were NO personal attacks intended in any of the posts I've placed here.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
David Murdoch, Sorry David, I kinda forgot you have kids and went with your daughters, in this case what I would advise is chasing after the culprits, knocking them over then beating them into a bloddy pulp with your ski poles.

Now all this talk of Italians is making me hungry!

fatirishman,liking the two to each other by putting David Murdoch in the same sentence as Goebbels is as offensive and stereotypic as saying all Italians are dangerous skiers. Actually it could be construed as more offensive.
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David Murdoch, I would also David possibly advise a very early start to the day with kids i.e on first lift at 8.30-9 am. Go as high as possible i.e where easy reds are still an option and ski down a few times. The pistes shouldnt get really busy until about 12 ish which by that time you can take your lunch and then ski down at 1.30 ish where alot of people may be lunching, finish off with litte 'uns at about 2.15 or so and then go and slaughter the mountains for a few hours until dusk.

It may be an idea in the future to design mountains with specific areas and times where only children accompanied by adults can get access to the lifts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
plectrum wrote:
David Murdoch,

fatirishman,liking the two to each other by putting David Murdoch in the same sentence as Goebbels is as offensive and stereotypic as saying all Italians are dangerous skiers. Actually it could be construed as more offensive.



I think you should go and think that one over for logic.
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Maybe you brits should grow some mountains, it will spare you the hassles of showing the Italians how it should be done in Italy... Toofy Grin
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fatirishman wrote:
Yes, sure some of the comments are justified if aimed at individuals! But it's frankly lazy to say all Italians queue jump for example...... I've made my point previously and I'll shut up now, but please bear in mind these really are the stereotypes that Goebbels played upon and I find them dangerous. I had a meeting with some neo nazis in Leipzig 8 years ago that was testament to that. Yes there is messing around, but there is a line, where you choose to draw it is up to you.



FatIrishMan : You made the inference not me ... no need for an explanation of the logic behind my assumption.


By the way I never recall from gcse history that Goebbels played on the skiing ability of the Italians or for that matter whether they queue jump. Laughing
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
And people wonder whether new users find Snow Heads intimidating...from this thread I would have to say yes! Shocked
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There is no direct link there at all! If you choose to read one into it then that's up to you. All I'm saying is stereotyping is dangerous, look at what happened 60 years ago when Nazi propaganda played upon such lazy thinking. There is nothing there that calls anyone other than Josef Goebbels a nazi.
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fatirishman What was your best memory on snow this year? (a subtle change of subject! Confused)


Mine had to be in white out in Chamonix when it is dumpin about 5-10 cm an hour and my girlfriend is moody nearly in tears because her boots hurt. I know she would love hopping off the piste into the fat powder but her confidence is shot. I convince her to take her boots off rub her feet and put her boots back on. After that she has the confidence to jump off the piste ......... 10 mins later we stop at the bottom and she has a beaming smile exclaiming how wicked that was.....

To me that is what skiing is about ... the mutha fking awe that it can inspire!
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