 Poster: A snowHead
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stoatsbrother,
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Would you ski in the back country without a transceiver, probe and shovel?
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Please, please, please let David Goldsmith not have seen this question. Aaaargh. BTW, does anyone apart from me think this thread is getting the tiniest bit repetitive?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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abc, "false sense of security" and "I've seen people die despite wearing helmets" are both pretty weak arguments in favour of not wearing a ski helmet.
I'm not expecting you to suddenly see the light and I won't be giving up either my ski or bike helmets any time soon, so why don't we just leave it there?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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abc, that study was in a proper peer-reviewed scientific journal.
Not much point in really discussing this with you is there? Are you sure you don't belong on TGR? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, repetitiveness is good - it gives me a cosy warm feeling!
Although I will be getting a ski helmet, there is one thing I don't like. Being a complete baldy I get a nicely tanned bonce in the sunshine. I imagine that wearing a helmet with vents in it will see me getting nicely shaped tanned marks. Same with cycle helmets. I'm still riding without one since I got my old helmet out of the garage only to find it had hay, chewed up bits of plastic bag and mouse droppings in it! I would ideally like a helmet with vents but also with some sort of inner lining (Coolmax or DriFit type stuff). Any ideas anyone? Might start another thread for helmets.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I remain sceptical about there being no negative, personally I think I am one of those people who are likely to ski faster and take more risks with a helmet therefore I don't wear one, besides the fact that I have no room to pack one.
Don't wish to stop others wearing them if they wish.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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T Bar, no room to pack one.....that's the cop out I use when I refuse to pack a hairdryer for MrsPeteMillis!
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petemillis,
Mrs T Bar, takes the hairdryer probably why I don't have room 
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petemillis, Dainesse fun or Giro bad lieutenant - no slots to give you strange patches on your head, but perhaps a bit hotter. Not sure about the linings though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoatsbrother, cheers for the tips. I'm a bit of a sweaty hothead but always wear a hat when skiing anyway to keep the rays off. The helmets you have mentioned seem to have decent ventillation built in so might not be too bad. I can feel a spend coming on.
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| T Bar wrote: |
I remain sceptical about there being no negative, personally I think I am one of those people who are likely to ski faster and take more risks with a helmet therefore I don't wear one
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So you are in effect saying that you don't wear a helmet because you're too stupid? Fair enough, hard to argue with that really 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Second the Dainese Fun (sometimes called Freeride too - same helmet). I don't find it particularly hot either.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Cool - I like Dainese - got the full Dainese armour for the MX track and does me good. It does make me ride faster though - I kind of feel indestructible and all sort of muscular with the body armour on under by bike shirt!
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
abc, "false sense of security" and "I've seen people die despite wearing helmets" are both pretty weak arguments in favour of not wearing a ski helmet.
I'm not expecting you to suddenly see the light and I won't be giving up either my ski or bike helmets any time soon, so why don't we just leave it there? |
I never said I'm against wearing a helmet. I wear one myself while biking, and may even wear one skiing.
The "light" you don't see, is skiing helmets are not life-savers as the begining of this thread attempts to protrait.
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You know it makes sense.
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uktrailmonster,
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So you are in effect saying that you don't wear a helmet because you're too stupid?
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Not really just naturally cautious and being aware of how I interact with equipment. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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petemillis, yeah I like Dainese kit too. I've got one of their ski jackets and gloves too. All top notch.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
The "light" you don't see, is skiing helmets are not life-savers as the begining of this thread attempts to protrait. |
Well maybe you're wrong. Perhaps they can be life savers in certain scenarios?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
abc, that study was in a proper peer-reviewed scientific journal.
Not much point in really discussing this with you is there? Are you sure you don't belong on TGR? |
Just because a study is published doesn't means its conclusion is right. I'm a scientist myself. I've seen enough such "study" in my field later being overturned. The fact that there's no other independent collaborating that conclusion is enough to be "skepticle" about it.
No, there's not much point in discussing ANGTHING if you're going to take any "published" article as the truth. If you don't doubt anything, there's no need to discuss any further.
[EDIT]
You and I are not tallking about the same study, I believe.
I was talking about the study that wearing helmet while biking on the road "invites" more accidents. You appear to be talking about the study in Colorado!
Both were published in scientific journals.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 17-04-07 19:56; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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T Bar, mmm.. doesn't sound like you're naturally cautious to me. Or only cautious when not wearing a helmet?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| abc wrote: |
No, there's not much point in discussing ANGTHING if you're going to take any "published" article as the truth. If you don't doubt anything, there's no need to discuss any further. |
It would be fair to consider the article as being at least "evidence" surely? Or do you simply doubt anything that doesn't fit your point of view? So far in this thread I haven't heard one single decent argument why I should not wear a helmet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uktrailmonster,
Well putting it this way I have observed that I tend to ski faster when wearing goggles than sunglasses which I have put down to greater dissociation from my environment. I also seem to go down hill faster on a bike when weraing than when not wearing a helmet a simple observation.
There is also a very low risk of head injury when skiing, I am probably putting myself at higher risk by wearing a helmet than otherwise. In either case the risk seems to be lower than in many of my other activities such as driving to work where I also don't wear a helmet though I usually do when I cycle.
PS in your last post I don't think anyone on this thread has tried to persuade you to not wear a helmet just that it is not always sensible or logical for everyone to do so.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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T Bar, no offence, but you sound like you have no self control. I guess if wearing a helmet turns you into a cock, then you shouldn't wear one. That seems to be your reasoning anyway
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abc, I think the point is (me being a scientist myself as well) that there is some evidence to support the hypothesis that head protection can reduce the risk of serious brain injury. I haven't yet seen any evidence to support a hypothesis that wearing a ski helmet will increase risk of neck injury, or that wearing a ski helmet will not reduce risk of serious brain injury, or that wearing a ski helmet makes people ski more dangerously. Alsthough there is some suggestion from other skiers who have observed people in helmets skiing dangerously, it is not known whether they would ski equally dangerously without a helmet. There may be some papar somewhere on how helmet wearing gives a false sense of security.
On balance, I would have to conclude that the limited amount of information I have read on the subject would suggest that wearing a ski helmet has some benefits, and no down sides.
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uktrailmonster,
No offence taken though I would argue that my self control is in not wearing a helmet, I dont think it turns me into a wild man just a little less safe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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petemillis, that about sums up my position too. Without all the scientific study, common sense and intuition are enough to sway me in favour of wearing a lid.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| It would be fair to consider the article as being at least "evidence" surely? Or do you simply doubt anything that doesn't fit your point of view? So far in this thread I haven't heard one single decent argument why I should not wear a helmet. |
Don't we all ("doubt anything that doesn't fit our point of view")?
That's why the discussion. Yes, there's evidence helmet might help reduce head trama. But as the author pointed out, there's no enough data to make any conclusions. So it's up to every individual to decide what one wish to do until more data becomes available. What I objecct to, is people who talk as though the conclusion is already there. There's no need for any more discussion in that case, is there?
By the way, according to the article, recreational activity only accounts for 20% of head injuries. That begs the question, why aren't we all wear helmets while driving and walking?
We seems to be focusing on the smaller risk associated with skiing while willingly risking the more dangerous part of "non-recreational activities"!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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petemillis,
I cannot be bothered to go back through the papers but all but one of the papres that I have seen the numbers of injuries in helmet wearers seemed disproportionately high to the numbers of people then skiing in them; though the only paper that specifically looked at this, this was not the case. Personally I remain a little sceptical as risk compensation has been observed in so many other places.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 17-04-07 20:08; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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abc, strangely enough - this being a largely UK based site I was talking about a UK study.
I think this is similar or the same one, which whilst it looks anecdotal actually I mentioned to support your view...
I have to say this is not the first thread in which I have been puzzled by your train of logic, but lets just let it drop huh?
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| petemillis wrote: |
On balance, I would have to conclude that the limited amount of information I have read on the subject would suggest that wearing a ski helmet has some benefits, and no down sides. |
I totally agree with that conclusion.
In fact, the Colorado study is the first one that mentioned directly about the (lack of) neck injury issue. I think that's a good start in that particular area.
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You know it makes sense.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
abc, strangely enough - this being a largely UK based site I was talking about a UK study.
I think this is similar or the same one, which whilst it looks anecdotal actually I mentioned to support your view...
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Yes, that's the study we both were talking about. (the colorado study was about head injuries in recreational acitivities)
It doesn't actually support "my view". I don't have a view on whether wearing helmet has anything to do with having more or less accident with cars.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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T Bar,
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| Well putting it this way I have observed that I tend to ski faster when wearing goggles than sunglasses which I have put down to greater dissociation from my environment. |
I also ski faster when wearing goggles - but I don't put it down to greater dissociation from my environment. Quite the opposite in fact, for me at least. I wear contact lenses, they go horrible when wearing sunglasses. But when I'm wearing my goggles I am more connected to my environment as I can see it in much more clarity. I can therefore judge what I'm doing better.
Re the helmets on bikes - I do cycle downhill on rough tracks faster when wearing a helmet, but mainly because I know I'll hurt myself badly if I fall without a helmet. So, yes, I do take more of a risk I guess in that if I go fast I might be more likely to fall. But a helmet doesn't make me cycle recklessly as I still cycle well within my capabilities. Only a stupid person who gets off on watching Jackass and enjoys watching skiers and boarders fall when sliding down handrails is going to ski way beyond their capabilities BECAUSE they're wearing a helmet. So I guess that does mean that SOME people will ski more dangerously in a helmet, and possible be a greater risk to others as well as themselves.
But, on balance, I'd still say that provided you wear a helmet AND ski within your capabilities then you will be safer than NOT wearing a helmet and skiing within your capabilities. If, however, wearing a helmet makes you ski like a plonker well outside your capabilities because it gives you a sense of immortaility, then you will possible be at greater risk.
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Poster: A snowHead
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petemillis,
You may be right, there seems to be a paucity of decent evidence. All the studies that I have seen that look at protective effects of ski helmets have pretty poor outcome measurements largely transfer to hospital. The chap up in Scotland who is trying to look at head injuries in snow users has been hampered by the fact that there have not been any major ones since he started looking, with that level of risk I am content to look at other ways of protecting my head such as not speeding to the ski resorts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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T Bar, I hope you will also consider the long term damaging effects of alcohol consumption when deciding on your choice of apres ski activities.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| abc wrote: |
By the way, according to the article, recreational activity only accounts for 20% of head injuries. That begs the question, why aren't we all wear helmets while driving and walking?
We seems to be focusing on the smaller risk associated with skiing while willingly risking the more dangerous part of "non-recreational activities"! |
I think that's probably more related to the percentage of our time spent on recreational activity. Or do you seriously think walking is more dangerous than skiing?
Driving is an interesting case and often brought up in these discussions. Why wear a helmet skiing and not while driving? Well for one thing, the outside of your car provides quite a substantial amount of protection in its own right. You are not directly exposed to an impact with a stationary object when inside in a car. Seatbelts and air bags add a fair bit more head protection. You could of course top it all off with a helmet too, as every motorsport participant does. That would be the safest option, no question. You could also wear a full face motorcycle helmet for skiing. It's just a matter of what level of protection you decide to go for. I wouldn't own a car without seatbelts and multiple air bags. I wouldn't ski without a lightweight helmet. I wouldn't go downhill mountain biking without a full face helmet and body armour. But I will risk a walk in the park with no head protection. It's all just common sense really.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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One thing I've observed in mountain biking is that people who don't wear helmets have generally never bashed their heads (yet) and assume it isn't going to happen to them. They nearly always buy a helmet immediately after the first decent whack they take. Crazy logic if you ask me, but I've seen it dozens of times. Perhaps brian will back me up on this
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| One thing I've observed in mountain biking is that people who don't wear helmets have generally never bashed their heads (yet) and assume it isn't going to happen to them. They nearly always buy a helmet immediately after the first decent whack they take. Crazy logic if you ask me, but I've seen it dozens of times. Perhaps brian will back me up on this |
I've not seen too many people who mountain bike without helmet. Bike riding? Yes. Riding on tight trails, rarely.
I personally don't believe there's any "assume-ing" going on. Most of us learn to ride bikes as children and helmet were not available back then. I don't think anyone 20 years back ever "assume" they wouldn't hit their head if they do fall. And most people continue to ride without one. If we live this long (decades) without helmet, and remember many of us use our bike a lot more in those days, I really don't see that big of a deal whether we do now or not.
When the branches along the trail keep wacking my bare head on my mountain bike rides, it seem perfectly natural to put some sort of a lid on. Now that I've got a helmet, and it doesn't seem to bother me riding in the trail, then riding on pavement with the lid on does seem equally acceptable. But I don't preach on others who choose not to wear one.
As for cars, despite all the "cushioning" you think are provided by the airbags and such, lots of people are still getting killed due, exactly, to head injuries.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
As for cars, despite all the "cushioning" you think are provided by the airbags and such, lots of people are still getting killed due, exactly, to head injuries.
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Please check facts and data before typing such an incorrect generalisation.
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| abc wrote: |
I've not seen too many people who mountain bike without helmet. Bike riding? Yes. Riding on tight trails, rarely.
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Try having a helmet debate on the "singletrack" forum and you'll find plenty. Although most sensible mountain bikers wear a helmet these days, there are still a few stubborn ones that don't. I see at least one or two every time I ride. Even seen them on serious downhill courses and dirt jumps.
| abc wrote: |
I personally don't believe there's any "assume-ing" going on. Most of us learn to ride bikes as children and helmet were not available back then. I don't think anyone 20 years back ever "assume" they wouldn't hit their head if they do fall. And most people continue to ride without one. If we live this long (decades) without helmet, and remember many of us use our bike a lot more in those days, I really don't see that big of a deal whether we do now or not.
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Safety standards in virtually every activity have improved massively over the last 20 years. Why not take advantage? Your car never had air bags 20 years ago and it's quite possible you never wore seatbelts back then. You survived, so why not continue without? Your logic seems strange to me.
| abc wrote: |
As for cars, despite all the "cushioning" you think are provided by the airbags and such, lots of people are still getting killed due, exactly, to head injuries. |
Modern cars are far safer than 20 years ago. I'd much rather crash in a new car without a helmet than in a similar 20 year old car with a helmet. Of course some crashes are not survivable with or without a helmet. Nobody would argue that.
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| veeeight wrote: |
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As for cars, despite all the "cushioning" you think are provided by the airbags and such, lots of people are still getting killed due, exactly, to head injuries.
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Please check facts and data before typing such an incorrect generalisation. |
At a guess he is referring to the problem of people who refuse to wear seat belts, then rely on airbags as a primary, rather than secondary safety device.
From discussions with medics, what airbags has done is increase the number of foot and leg injuries from car accidents. (and the data could be left at that, if you wanted an interesting headline)
...but what it would fail to mention is that before airbags, there were just as many foot/leg injuries, but the people were already dead, and the CoD was not a broken ankle, so it wasn't recorded in the statistics.
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brian
brian
Guest
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brian, If she hadn't had the knock on the head, do you think she would have got round to buying a helmet yet? I bet it became a high priority all of a sudden.
That's an interesting point about helmet wearers supposedly injuring non-helmet wearers. I would argue that it would hurt just as much if you banged your head against someone not wearing a helmet. The fact that the one wearing a helmet comes off better, does not automatically mean the non-helmet wearer is any worse off because they happened to hit someone wearing a helmet. Unless you attach spikes to your helmet
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FAQ
