 Poster: A snowHead
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Trying to get Mrs Trailmonster away from starting her turns with a narrow wedge. She's a confident intermediate with around 6 weeks snowtime under her belt and plenty of lessons, but seems to have hit a little plateau. I was reading about the "Harb wedge blocker turn" which seems like a sensible way of progressing. Any comments on this or other alternative methods of progression?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Warren Smith's solution (Edit: to a stem/wedge/plough initiation) is braquage drills to get the hips moving across the skis to inside ensuring the steering comes from the femur to stop any inside knee A framing. It's also great as an ankle flexing exercise. Once mastered at dead slow speed it's a lot easier to get the hips across & over in normal skiing to eliminate any stem/wedge initiation.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 6-04-07 10:37; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, welcome to snowHeads! Have to confess I struggled with understanding this one as well 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, Phew, thanks! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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uktrailmonster, I have a feeling I'm going to regret this but could you describe the "Harb wedge blocker turn" for us ?
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brian
brian
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Hurtle, welcome to  s !
Wedge is american for snowplough, so uktm is trying to get his missus to stop going into a little bit of a plough shape at the start of her turns and then sliding the inside one to get them parallel as the turn progresses (ie. the good old stem or basic swing turn of bygone days).
Mr Harb is a somewhat controversial instructor and author of skiing manuals which rely on (allegedly) outdated techniques dressed up in impenetrable jargon. Seems he has a turn which may be of use (but I hae ma doots !).
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brian, Goddit, thanks for English, I mean Scottish, translation.! And I infer that Warren Smith's solution is to train your thigh to initiate the move, rather than your knee? Or summat.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Agenterre, dunno about failed eejits - I thought that's something we had succeeded at.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Actually, Harb's latest book is one of the best skiing books on the market right now.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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uktrailmonster, It's normally a failure to commit totally to the new turning ski that causes peeps to stay in a small plough. therefore your mrs needs lessons that will work on exercises to help with this problem. There are lots and lots of them (too many to mention here as I'm v. busy), and one of them for sure will click with her. She needs an experienced and rounded teacher who isn't stuck in any particular methodology. 
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Thanks for the replies everyone
easiski, yes I agree it's her reluctance to commit to the new turning ski that causes the narrow plough. She still has her weight on the inside ski at the start of the turn. That's what got me thinking about this "wedge blocker" idea. None of the instructors she's had recently have really made an effort to ween her off stem turns, but I think (and more importantly, she thinks) she's ready to progress.
Yoda, From what I understand, a basic "wedge blocker turn" involves balancing entirely on the uphill ski outside edge while traversing, then slightly lifting the tail of the downhill ski while tipping it onto its outside edge to start the turn. This movement then naturally tips the outside ski onto its inside edge, turning it passively without any attempt at forcing it to steer. The key point seems to be to keep your weight entirely on the outside ski at the start of the turn, making it virtually impossible to steer it into a plough. Hence the name "wedge blocker". It's clearly designed to be an exercise, rather than a definitive method of turning.
Regardless of Harb's reputation as some sort of skiing evangelist, this seems like a reasonable concept to me.
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You know it makes sense.
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uktrailmonster, perhaps "1000 step turns" would help - just keep walking round the turn - picking up the skis as you go.
The other thing to check - is the problem the same in both directions? Some people have an issue with one way more than another, and that tends to be down to alignment.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
uktrailmonster, perhaps "1000 step turns" would help - just keep walking round the turn - picking up the skis as you go.
The other thing to check - is the problem the same in both directions? Some people have an issue with one way more than another, and that tends to be down to alignment. |
mmmm... don't like the idea of step turns. Wouldn't that just reinforce her habit of keeping her weight on the inside ski while stepping the outside ski round? Or have I misunderstood your meaning?
She uses the same technique in both directions. It's what she was taught to do early on. Her basic stance is pretty good and she can do very narrow stem turns perfectly well all day long on reds and easy blacks. On easier slopes, her stemming is fairly well hidden to a casual observer. On our last trip, she observed that better skiers do something different, but nobody had explained what that difference was!
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Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster, I think it might be a slight misunderstanding - try it on a gentle slope, walk around the turn pick up the left leg, then put it down, then pick up the right leg and put it down - it doesn't need to be picked up high, but it does require the inside ski not being on the "wrong" edge, or else you'll never turn it.
spyderjon's "braquage" is also referred to as "pivot slips".
On a gentle slope...
1. Side slipping.
-Can you side slip down a hill in a straight line?
-Can you side slip down and go forward in a controlled way?
-Can you side slip down and go backward in a controlled way?
-Can you side slip and go forward and backward, so that you are zig-zagging down the slope?
2. Hockey stops.
- Can you turn your skis quickly under you from moving down the hill to facing across the hill?
3. Making the turn.
Side slip down so that you are moving at a controlled speed.
Now stand up so that the skis flatten off their edges.
Because you are on a slope, the skis will naturally seek the fall line.
They will turn unless you do something to stop them.
Just let them slide into the fall line. Then put in a hockey stop in the same direction as the turn, and you should now be facing the opposite way to when you started.
If you find that you're getting too much speed, find a wide slope and rather than letting the skis get completely into the fall line, put in a hockey stop before they get there, so that you are still facing the direction you started from.
Cofused yet? (I await V8 etc to correct me!)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks Wear The Fox Hat, she does have difficulty side slipping in a controlled manner, so that would be a good exercise to help her edge control. She's ok with hockey stops.
When you say pick up the left leg and put it down, then pick up the right leg - which direction are we turning?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Thanks Wear The Fox Hat, she does have difficulty side slipping in a controlled manner, so that would be a good exercise to help her edge control. She's ok with hockey stops. |
OK, we've got something to work on then!
(sometimes side slipping is easier to do learn on a slightly steeper slope)
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| When you say pick up the left leg and put it down, then pick up the right leg - which direction are we turning? |
For the 1000 steps, it doesn't matter. You pick up the inside leg, then the outside, then the inside, then the outside, etc. Imagine you are walking round the turn, with no skis on.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
For the 1000 steps, it doesn't matter. You pick up the inside leg, then the outside, then the inside, then the outside, etc. Imagine you are walking round the turn, with no skis on. |
Thanks, I'm with you now. Picking up the inside ski first sounds ok. I'll get her to try this and the side slipping control (which will be very useful anyway)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uktrailmonster, if you want to see examples of braquage and Warren talking about preventing the inside ski blocking then have a look at the online tips at http://www.warrensmith-skiacademy.com/online-tips.htm and look at the clips on dynamic crossover and speed control in moguls. There is more stuff on the full DVDs but you can get an idea from his website.
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Picking up the inside ski first sounds ok
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I know this is an exercise to prevent the inside leg blocking and as such would probably be successful, but I would think that this would just reinforce another problem. It would stop the turn initiation being a wedge but would then encourage Mrs T to lift her inside ski when turning. She will get away with this on piste but if you take that into moguls, ice or powder where you need a more 50/50 weight balance it will stuff up her technique. Lift the inside ski in a powder turn and about two seconds later you'll be eating snow. I know this because I've been there and it's taken me a while to get rid of the habit. What worked for me was concentrating on turning and rolling the inside (downhill) knee to initiate the turn but keeping my ankle flexed and the ski weighted. Just my 2p worth
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Warren's description of the dynamic crossover - that'll be the OLR.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yoda, I see what you mean, but I don't like the word "steering" as it implies forcing the skis to turn, which is something else she tends to do, rather than allowing the skis to follow their natural arc.
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| Quote: |
I await V8 etc to correct me
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Don't hold your breath..... 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| On a gentle slope she wouldn't need to hockey stop but could just keep linking turns. |
Yoda, I agree about not needing the hockey stop, but initially I think it's a good idea to do them - one turn then stop, then another, and stop, etc. If she doesn't put in the stop initially, she may find speed building up, or that she returns to stemming the start, but the hockey stop means she ends up with her skis parallel and facing across the slope, so the start of the next turn will be from a place of controlled speed and parallel skis.
(it is also a tool which she can use if she ends up on a steeper pitch and needs to make a quick turn)
...and then there's how you do the hockey stop...
One thing I was playing with at Squaw was making sure I was doing it by pushing the tips of the ski up the hill, not pushing the tails down the hill - the main drawback of pushing the tips is that you create less of a spray to cover your friends in
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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uktrailmonster, much as I'd like to see Mrs UKTM in Big White, I can't open the video...... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uktrailmonster, I get a message that Quicktime needs something but can't find it ..... (sound is OK though) 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I can see it (using a Mac) and it looks pretty good. The only thing that my amateur eye can see is that she is a bit reluctant to commit, so each turn sees the new outside ski being steered fractionally before the inside ski. Exercises to improve the pole plant and make a more dynamic cross-over might help
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rob@rar, cathy, Yoda, Works on a Mac here as well; worth recording as this is a first for Mac-users! Unfortunately not skilled nor experienced enough to pass comment other than saying it does highlight exactly what uktrailmonster, has written.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| The only thing that my amateur eye can see is that she is a bit reluctant to commit, so each turn sees the new outside ski being steered fractionally before the inside ski. |
Exactly my observation too. On steeper slopes her reluctance to commit becomes more and more obvious.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| The only thing that my amateur eye can see is that she is a bit reluctant to commit, so each turn sees the new outside ski being steered fractionally before the inside ski. |
Exactly my observation too. On steeper slopes her reluctance to commit becomes more and more obvious. |
I do the same on steeper slopes, up to a full-blown stem christie when it is very steep off piste. I find that focusing on something other than "be more committed" is helpful, a good pole plant for example.
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Oh it's SO frustrating not being able to view the video, as I'm certain I'd be able to learn something from all your comments on it. Bother.
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FAQ
That doesn't bode too well for my snowHead career... 
So you have to give her something to replace that 
