 Poster: A snowHead
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There have been some interesting experiences detailed in other threads about ski 'training'.
I think this is a subject that needs exploring since it's something that we ALL do at one time or another and it's clear that there is some sort of 'problem' at indoor/outdoor slopes in the UK.
Here's my interpretation: . . .
1) Instruction: you pay for a certified/qualified/accredited/professional lesson.
2) Peer Review: your friends/social group/etc. are asked for and provide informed comment . . . caveat emptor does not apply since it is not a sales contract / no remuneration / no professional skills are stated or implied.
3) Advice: unsolicited comment from strangers.
No. 1, Does/is the 'facility', slope, dome, ski area have any authority within EU law to restrict the contract or commerce of a lawfully accredited professional to conduct their business . . . after all, said professional and client(s) are only purchasing access to the sliding surface . . . or am I wrong? Constraint of Business law must have a role in defining or striking down repressive T&C's that are anti-competitive.
No. 2, No Contract, no money, no foul . . . no comment
No. 3, You might get laid . . . or you might get slapped
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Lots of us have thoughts and experiences about what works for us to slide safely down the hill and there is a plethora of standardised rules for general mountain safety . . . but outside the legal contract of employing an accredited professional, why should there be any restriction on one individual (however well or poorly equipped) to open mouth and spout?
We all watch our betters and peers and try to work out how they seen to slide effortlessly and gracefully down the hill . . . why should any organisation or company tell us that you can't do that 'here'?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This has gone on since the year dot. More flexible attitudes used to prevail, but we're talking 30 years ago in terms of plastic slopes. However, if an instructor is bring clients to the slope that would not otherwise visit, there's bound to be room for negotiation.
I can't imagine that a private hospital would allow some surgeon to turn up with a patient and use their operating theatre without permission.
Personally, if I was operating a custom-built ski slope I'd keep out any unauthorised ski instructors.
Public open spaces like mountains are different, but they have evolved to be managed semi-artificial (snow-making, grooming, lift-serviced) facilities, so I guess that's why local communities who operate these mountains can apply restrictive practices towards private teaching on the slopes ... in a similar way to plastic slopes and snowdomes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| ..............No. 1, Does/is the 'facility', slope, dome, ski area have any authority within EU law to restrict the contract or commerce of a lawfully accredited professional to conduct their business . . . after all, said professional and client(s) are only purchasing access to the sliding surface . . . or am I wrong? Constraint of Business law must have a role in defining or striking down repressive T&C's that are anti-competitive............ |
Nice one - which it might take case law to resolve?
FWIW, if I were running a snow dome, I would be very wary of letting a stranger professional, whose credentials I had not vetted thoroughly, instruct on my slope. I would have a duty of care towards the public, and could not be reasonably sure that the professional would be genuine, and would not give instruction which would endanger his students, or cause his students to behave in such a way that was dangerous to others. For example, we know easiski (one of the best instructors around IMV). A slope owner does not.
As to whether any professional of an appropriate standard should be allowed to ply his trade on the slope, once his credentials have been vetted, I don't know. My gut feeling is that it is unreasonable. There would be problems concerning the wild-card instructor's activities with what was planned for the slope. And the wild-card might not have the same commitment to the community as the resident profesisonals. But maybe the law would back his right to unrestrained trade.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Re: No.1
As much as I would like to be able to whore my services around, I tend to agree with slopes not letting outsiders teach.
From the legal side:
There is just too much scope for 3rd party liability issues. If say, I was instructing someone, and that someone endangered/injured/maimed/etc. another innocent slope user, that innocent slope user would take the slope operators to court (not me, as that innocent slope user had a contract with the slope, not me).
It would then be up to the slope operator to chase me for any compensation/liability.
It is the slope operator's duty of care to provide a safe and controlled environment for that particular activity, so, by letting someone not in their direct employ teach on that slope then they are no longer meeting their obligations.
BTW there is no anti-competitive or monopolistic issue here. There is nothing stopping your setting up your operations next door.
From the commercial side:
It's my coffee shop, why should I allow another coffee maker to come into my shop and sell his coffee?
Ford own a car making plant, is it unreasonable for them to say "no" to Toyota wanting to come in and build their cars in Ford's factory?
Why should a private golf club allow freelance pros to come in and teach? They have their own staff that they have to employ, pay and maintain.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 31-03-07 15:54; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No.1, I agree with veeeight,
No.2 I don't see a problem with it as long as the slope is made pre aware of your presence and you are not interfering with the other slope users. Most slopes are pleased to receive the extra business.
No.3 I've had both. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In fact, if we don't take reasonable care to exclude people using the facility outside normal opening hours - for example the local scumbags have a tendency to steal "For Sale" notices from houses, bring them to the slope at 2am and slide down on them whilst out of their heads - then we end up with major insurance issues or even the threat of litigation when they bust themsleves
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Insurance issues aside providing there isnt too much vandalism sounds more like youthful high spirits than scum bag activity.
Climbing buildings and sliding down things was part of my youth anyway.
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In the good old days if you stole a for sale sign, slid down a ski slope and hurt yourself, you would get a clip round the ear from your mum and you wouldn't do it again.
These days said scumbag chav mum would sue the slope for allowing access to her precious, and that he/she hurt themselves on your property. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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T Bar, and would you then attempt to set the Dendix on fire (fortunately it doesn't burn very well but the damaged areas have to be replaced), bend as many Poma poles as you could and remove the Poma buttons before setting fire to the stolen car you arrived in in the car park? That's what they do here.
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I generally agree that a slope (either dome or plastic) should restrict the formal teaching to their own staff. However if a person, (properly qualified and who can produce the relevant bits of paper,) wishes to ski with a less able skier and give them some friendly hints and tips along the way, I fail to see why they should be penalised for having the good manners to ask first and make themselves known. Many "friends" give unnoficial instruction; if it's not a formal lesson, and no money changes hands, then it seems unfair to me.
Presumably the exprienced skier/instructor has encouraged the less able skier to go in the first place. Everyone is paying for the slope time ..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lets start my reminding folks 'I'm new to all this' so these comments are just the Megamum uninformed perspective:-
All the above comments from all sides make sense - this just adds to the confusion! 
However, from the litigation side of things - i.e. the skier sueing the slope if they get injured - is it the slopes responsibility if the skier under tutition gets hurt from from a non-slope employed ski instructor? Or does the skier take responsibility for their own safety by chosing their own instructor? and in this instance providing the skier is aware of such things when they chose who to instruct them does it matter whether the instructor has papers or not? I bet there are loads of decently skiing parents that initially teach their kids and I think you'd have a hard time stopping that, anymore than you could stop my Swiss friends teaching mine and their own kids.
If you're skiing in a snow dome without instruction by anyone and broke your ankle wouldyou/could you claim against the snowdome? - after all its a high risk sport? I wouldn't dream of claiming after all I had made my own free choice to be there. I can't see it makes any difference whether you're being instructed by anyone at the time or making it up yourself as you go along. Not to mention the fact that no-one in the dome/resort knows what changes hands, money, favours or just handshakes outside the dome/resort.
From what I see you're paying to use the snow - you pay extra to use the boots and the skis, but you can bring your own and use them, why should the hire of an instuctor be any different. You can pay extra (in the case of some places it seems astronomically extra) to use those supplied by the resort/dome, buy why shouldn't you bring your own and 'use them'?
At the end of the day if anyone is offering instruction that brings punters to your resort that wouldn't come along if they couldn't get some tips from their mates, parents etc. (qualified or not), is it in the interests of the dome/resort to object? If the dome/resort is willing to offer its punters some protection against physical injury whilst under the auspices of one of their instuctors (which somehow I doubt), then all they need to do is to get punters to sign a disclaimer for all skiing which is not under the ausipices of their instuctors.
As I say just my uninformed perspective - shall I stop rambling?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, Well said.
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Yoda,
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ould you then attempt to set the Dendix on fire (fortunately it doesn't burn very well but the damaged areas have to be replaced), bend as many Poma poles as you could and remove the Poma buttons before setting fire to the stolen car you arrived in in the car park?
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No thats vandalism totally agree, but the first description of sliding downhill on a few for sale signs is high spirits or at least what would have passed for high spirits in my youth.
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You know it makes sense.
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Why should a private golf club allow freelance pros to come in and teach? They have their own staff that they have to employ, pay and maintain.
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I guess if the venue pays its own staff and the facility is there to provide the facilities including instructors to teach the folk then this might be a point - is this the case with all ski venues? Mind you if the use of the facility is being paid for anyway they may end up turning away potential punters - after all what constitutes 'instruction'? is someones comment that you might find things easier tried differently instruction and if not how many comments does it take before it is?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FAQ
