 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm just back from an enjoyable week in some excellent powder and spent most of my time in the same company, lessons and post lesson runs with new 'mates'.
One guy in the group managed to have 4 collisions that I saw and maybe more that I didn't. Supposedly, (upper) intermediate, but with no ettiquette or peripheral vision whatsoever!! No serious collisions, but some pretty annoyed folks, who got broadsided out of nowhere.
He was told when he was wrong, but always denied liability and never listened to advice! What can you do? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| AxsMan wrote: |
| Re pole clicking I have been told (more than once) by instructors that it's just an 'announcement' i.e. 'I'm here, coming by on your right, please don't swerve into me' and as such is polite. I am not offended if someone comes past me and lets me know they are there |
I think as a skier that is correct, I would assume. But as a boarder I am not offended by it and am now competent enough on a board not to be worried by it either, but a learner boarder has no option but to swerve (cause they are [an i was] cr*p and boarders) so someone clicking and coming through anyway is not really being polite (from the learner boarders point of view). I was recently riding a narrow flat bit in Verbier from a slow zone to the main piste and just held back and stayed behind such a boarder until it was safe to pass without startling him, well actually he fell and then I passed  , someone clicking behind him would not have helped the situation at all. If in doubt just wait to pass until it is safe to do so.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
If in doubt just wait to pass until it is safe to do so.
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And top tip: don't whizz past a boarder behind his back, especially if he's riding on the toe edge at the time - he's quite likely to switch to heel edge at any minute and turn straight into you. This will always be the case until people evolve eyes oin the back of their heads.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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'pole clicking' I do use but only on cat tracks when someones either skiing or boarding in the middle or edge and is doing unpredicatable turns and I want to signal that I'm behind and going to come past, however I do agree less people seem to do it now - I came across it first in Austria
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
If in doubt just wait to pass until it is safe to do so.
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And top tip: don't whizz past a boarder behind his back, especially if he's riding on the toe edge at the time - he's quite likely to switch to heel edge at any minute and turn straight into you. This will always be the case until people evolve eyes oin the back of their heads. |
It would help on narrower pistes if boarders allowed faster slope users to pass them on their toeside rather than maximizing their blind spot by boarding down the margin on their toeside with occasional forays across the piste without being able to see what's behind them.
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It would also help if all skiers tried boarding to appreciate the unique pain caused by traversing or riding a long catrack on only toeside or heelside & a gained a better appreciation of movement patterns. But we don't live in an ideal world.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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if in doubt however (on a board or skis) when approaching a nervous learner just shout 'watcha matey, coming through', normally the learner will have a fit and either stop or fall, either way it makes passing them a lot easier, avoids an unecessary collision and you can get to the lift/apres before them
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rob@rar, it gets very painful holding one edge on a long track - changes of edge avoid nasty cramps in the calves. It's also difficult to hold a dead straight line on one edge, and the board tends to drift. You correct this by swapping edges and foraying (or possibly sashaying) across the piste as you describe. It's that or fall off the edge of the track.
fatbob, excellent idea. However, I suspect that what grumpy old farts like rob@rar, really want to do is grumble about other people, particularly if there's any change of categorising them as young upstarts with baggy trousers. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I find shouting "Achtung Schnell Schnell Bitte" seems to work... 
failing that "on your left" or "on your right" (the slower skiers usually do seem to be English)
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| Quote: |
| more inexperienced, nervous skiers or parents with kids need to take reponsibility for ensuring they have the skills to get down the particular run they have chosen or else download |
I agree with this, and hate seeing parents who can't ski taking scared little kids down bumpy red runs (and telling them it's easy!). Makes me want to get the parents on a snowboard.... However, it is not always possible to "download" (no way of doing it, for example, in the entire Espace Diamant as there are no gondolas and no chairlifts which skiers can ride downhill). Where you can download it is an option equally open to the fast skiers, if they don't like trailing down the homeward runs with the little kids and old biddies. The few times I have skied in Val D'Isere I have generally downloaded - one time, when two of us took this option, we much enjoyed the view of the rest of the group hopping between patches of grass.... Those narrow icy home runs full of beginners are a nightmare (I gather there is one in LDA too). But the really nasty collisions seem to be on bigger, open, pistes. Slow skiers have every right to be on them too, and annoying as they might be at times, like slow drivers, that doesn't justify careless overtaking. I was boarding this afternoon and pleased myself by wending my way round quite a few snowploughing skiers but faced with a class of ten toddlers behind an ESF instructor, right across the piste, my confidence deserted me and I landed on my backside where I sat till they got down to a wider bit and stopped. On skis I would not have given it a second thought and I would have been fine on the board if they had not been there; we all need to know our limitations, I suppose.
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You know it makes sense.
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Pam - The runs you are referring to in Les Deux Alpes are hilariously bad! The black is called "Valentine" I believe and is either piled up mush or an icy mess depending on conditions with people scattered all over it...Or there is a dodgy green that is even worse and is generally carnage from top to bottom - especially exciting if you are on a board avoiding the masses of bodies and slaloming snowploughers...
My preferred route (board) is simply straight down the middle off-piste, whatever the conditions are, this beats the piste choices by a mile! If the snow is good, you can ride under the main bubble following the pylons all the way into town..nice!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Lizzard wrote: |
rob@rar, it gets very painful holding one edge on a long track - changes of edge avoid nasty cramps in the calves. It's also difficult to hold a dead straight line on one edge, and the board tends to drift. You correct this by swapping edges and foraying (or possibly sashaying) across the piste as you describe. It's that or fall off the edge of the track.
fatbob, excellent idea. However, I suspect that what grumpy old farts like rob@rar, really want to do is grumble about other people, particularly if there's any change of categorising them as young upstarts with baggy trousers. |
That's not very nice is it Lizzard? You don't even know me
I'm sure it's stressful holding one edge for a long time (you think it's different on skis?), and I'm not trying to force anyone to do that, skier or boarder. What I am saying is that if a boarder elects to ride on one edge down the side of a narrow piste they should try to spend more time minimising their blindspot by riding with their heelside to the piste margin. Sharing the mountain with other users should be about being as respectful as possible. Maximising your blindspot, with occasional swoops across the piste to relieve the pain (regardless of whether you're a boarder or skier) is not respectful to other users. It's much easier to pass a boarder who is laying down good turns across the piste than someone who is erratically scraping their way down the side paying no attention to other people on the mountain.
Lizzard I have no problem with anyone who wears baggy trousers or all that goes with it. A good boarder is a joy to watch, but an inconsiderate slope-user (on one plank or two) deserves all the criticism they get. No special cases should be made for people just because they ride sideways; they have just as much responsibility to other people on the mountain as skiers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stevew wrote: |
| I do agree less people seem to do it now - I came across it first in Austria |
I once skied with a guy who wore a cow-bell round his neck. You *always* knew when he was coming up behind you. Surprised he didn't drive himself mad with it though...
Of course, all these "audible warnings of approach" are less effective these days now that more and more people are attached to their life support systems (i.e. iPods) 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 29-03-07 9:56; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
(you think it's different on skis?)
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After 30 years of skiing (good grief!  ), my considered opinion would be .............. yes it is.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
(you think it's different on skis?)
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After 30 years of skiing (good grief! ), my considered opinion would be .............. yes it is. |
You've never done a long transverse across a steep slope? Anyway, that's somewhat off-topic.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hit from the side by a women I had just overtaken ( I am doing the shortest turns on the left side of the piste ) and I give her plenty of room, and I'd been watching her in front of me for quite a time now ) and I am now turning left and she comes in from the side and I go over onto my right shoulder and get a big blow to the head. HTF that happened I don't know.... If looks could kill, she'd be dead a 1000 times. She is French and its in La Plagne.
One of the few times I was on a crowded piste..or any piste for that matter, in over a week of skiing and we had done some very good steep stuff in Serre C, Le Grave and L2A.
I had seen the ants and their carnage in Serre C on the 4 o'clock run but this was the 1st run of the day at about 10:30
Piste skiing is getting much more dangerous.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stevew,
Pole clicking is far better than a whoosh past which might de-stabilise the slower skier. I often do it on cat tracks
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I had my first collision earlier this month in Engelberg. It was on a narrow track, I was skiing on the far left side. There was a drop next to me. A snowboarder passed me on my right with his back to me, then cut right in front of me (maybe 2 meters). I'm guessing he never saw me. I had no chance to stop, could not go left because of the drop and could not go right because of traffic. I hit the deck and slid, skis first but turned to slow my progress, right into him. He fell over backwards onto me. As I see it, this was the least damaging outcome (other options: 1. I go left and fly off the drop, 2. I go right and smack someone else, 3. I do nothing and hit him straight on). He seemed to disagree, taking the point that since I hit him from behind, it must be my fault. I pointed out that actually he came from behind me. I saw him go to the ski patrol at the next lift, but they didn't seem at all bothered.
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A couple of years ago in Verbier, coming down towards Ruinnettes on a broad and not very crowded piste.
I was doing long, quite high speed Ss, so was she.
The Ss converged, but as we were in time with each other we were not aware of each other.
When the 100% convergence moment came I was sent flying! A total yard sale event.
It was like a full on Ice Hockey Body Check.
I don't think she even noticed....she was 20stone if she was an ounce! A HUGE woman! She didn't look round, just caried on down the slope in big, fat Ss.
My kids thought it was just about the funniest fall they had ever seen.
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| Quote: |
Pole clicking is far better than a whoosh past which might de-stabilise the slower skier.
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But maybe not as good as just slowing down, enjoying the view, and letting them be? A nervous beginner hearing pole clicking meaning "I'm coming past" is quite likely to do something completely erratic, and if they look round to see where you are, they could well fall over.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
You've never done a long transverse across a steep slope? Anyway, that's somewhat off-topic.
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Not really off topic, because it is a problem for snowboarders, at least for not very good snowboarders, even on quite short stretches. Understanding it can help avoid collisions, or ill-feeling towards boarders who might seem to be being cussed. Like Lizzard, I have skied for ages, and have certainly done long traverses, but the nature of snowboarding means it IS more of a problem. Without having tried both, nobody can really pronounce on this.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lizzard, I think it should be compulsory for all skiers to spend a day boarding, and all boarders to spend a day on skis
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Possibly we should introduce compulsory board lessons for stick-in-the-mud old skiers - |
Are you deliberately trying to be rude, or is it just your natural demeanor?
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rob@rar, you see yourself as a stick-in-the-mud then?
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
You've never done a long transverse across a steep slope? Anyway, that's somewhat off-topic.
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Not really off topic, because it is a problem for snowboarders, at least for not very good snowboarders, even on quite short stretches. Understanding it can help avoid collisions, or ill-feeling towards boarders who might seem to be being cussed. Like Lizzard, I have skied for ages, and have certainly done long traverses, but the nature of snowboarding means it IS more of a problem. Without having tried both, nobody can really pronounce on this. |
I always give boarders more room, especially when I come up in their their heelside blind spot. But are you agreeing with Lizzard that boarders don't have any responsibility to take account of the fact that they have a massive blindspot? If so, why should skiers (and presumably any other slope user coming up behind them, or are boarders exempt from that as well?) take all the responsibility?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| rob@rar, you see yourself as a stick-in-the-mud then? |
Given that you described me as "an old fart" earlier in this thread, I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that you aimed that little jibe at me
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| A good boarder is a joy to watch, but an inconsiderate slope-user (on one plank or two) deserves all the criticism they get. No special cases should be made for people just because they ride sideways; they have just as much responsibility to other people on the mountain as skiers. |
Must say I have to agree with that. IMHO boarders are no less considerate than skiers. I saw some you freestyle dudes in February doing jumps onto a piste and going through with the jumps despite the fact they could see folks that would have to take evasive action.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
are you agreeing with Lizzard that boarders don't have any responsibility to take account of the fact that they have a massive blindspot?
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When did I say that exactly? I recommended skiers to remember that there's a certain area into which a boarder can't see - people don't realise this until they start boarding. I explained to you why it is that less skilled boarders may need to turn across the piste rather than go in a straight line all the time, since you seemed to think it was entirely frivolous behaviour on their part. Far from advocating irresponsibility (on anyone's part), I was merely providing you and other non-boarders with information which might give you all the opportunity to ski more safely.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The few times Ive been hit on a board have virtually always been when Im turning onto my heel edge and another slope user is trying to pass within an inch of my backside. Im quite carefull now on narrower, flatter slopes. So much so that on my last trip I stuck my left arm out to indicate that I was about to turn left at a junction on the piste only to clothesline a skiier attempting the backside pass manouver.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The trick is to get just behind the boarder on the heel edge and then make loads of noise (skid skis sideways etc) - it doesn't half remind them that they have a blind spot.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
are you agreeing with Lizzard that boarders don't have any responsibility to take account of the fact that they have a massive blindspot?
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When did I say that exactly? I recommended skiers to remember that there's a certain area into which a boarder can't see - people don't realise this until they start boarding. I explained to you why it is that less skilled boarders may need to turn across the piste rather than go in a straight line all the time, since you seemed to think it was entirely frivolous behaviour on their part. Far from advocating irresponsibility (on anyone's part), I was merely providing you and other non-boarders with information which might give you all the opportunity to ski more safely. |
If you're also saying that boarders should pay extra attention because they have a particular responsibility to look after their blind spot, then we agree with each other. But in two threads that have discussed this issue you have implied, to my reading at least, that it is solely the skiers responsibility to account for a boarders blind spot. And because I've said that the boarder themselves should also carried some responsibility you've called me "on old fart", suggested I have no empathy with the baggy trouser brigade and possibly implied I'm a 'stick-in-the-mud skier'.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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pam w,
That sker is generally very slow...... you can't wait for these people to clear the hill, you'd be there all day. A polite click on the poles lets them know you are there and are likely to pass... so most people, if they have any sense about them, and I understand they may be nervous, wouldn't want you behind them anyway... They just need to be steady while you pass
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In Sierra Nevada (Spain), where I hadn't been for 9 years (but which used to be one of our favourite small resorts)--I was skiing very gently, just having got off the chairlift on an easy wide blue, following a friend, I was crashed into by a young woman-- who must have been completely out of control. I was totally "winded"--could hardly breathe for a few minutes as she'd hit me in the ribs. She was taken to hospital on a stretcher, and I opted to ski (gingerly) down to the lift, then to the hospital accompanied by friend and son. Nothing broken, but hairline rib fractures and bruising. That was 7 weeks ago-- am just about recovered now... That was the only time I have had a collision (in 30 years of skiing)-- but it has left me with a certain anxiety about skiing without body armour... Are these available in any sports shop I wonder??? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DB wrote: |
| The trick is to get just behind the boarder on the heel edge and then make loads of noise (skid skis sideways etc) - it doesn't half remind them that they have a blind spot. |
What's this "Blind Spot" everyone is banging on about? I board and ski and was not aware of any great hindrance on a board...
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What is this pole clicking? Do you mean putting them behind you and tapping them together?
The closest shaves I've had have undoubtedly been on mogul fields. Sometimes you can be full of good intentions to turn on *that* bump, only to overshoot it, just as someone coming from the other side does the same thing.
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FAQ
