 Poster: A snowHead
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There are some great new skis for 2007/8, mostly Freeride and Wide skis. How many of you will still be buying through test/stores and how many will use forums then Internet sites?
A difficult question, maybe to answer. Given the poor start, snow-wise this winter, many store will be left with stock of this years models and the manufacturers will have to dump their stocks somewhere, where i don't know(Southern Hemisphere i presume). We are about to undertake our buying and at the moment, look to be reducing our range by 50% for next winter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, it's bound to be an epic winter then 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Arno, I'm only planning on doing skis over 120mm in the waist, that way if it turns epic i can cut them all in half down the middle and double my stock.
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I'll look for bargain 2006/7 stock in both stores and internet. Bought my last ones at about half full retail this way from a local store through their website. I don't see the point in paying full retail for 2007/8 skis. They won't be twice as good.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uktrailmonster i totally agree, want to replace my slightly knackered piste skis (head monster im70 from 2004) and as i was very impressed with the head supershape speed when i tested them at the PSB am especially looking for a deal on these.......
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Just to outline our problem, without changing the tack of the thread. We have a small shop, perhaps a range of 40 skis. Mostly Freeride, all sandwich, woodcore(B3 an exception, plus a couple of torsion box for the Rando Beards). Due to the size of our range, our selection has to be spot on. Bad weather and Internet sales have contributed to a bad year, not in terms of pairs sold, but in the price we've sold them at. I love selling skis, the interaction with the client, an opportunity to display my passion and the partnership of the choosing using our test center.
For me it takes an good half hour to talk skis and get to the heart of the profile of the skier. But as i have made you aware, time is scarce and passing a half hour or more with a potential client, for them to ask for a pen and paper, note down model, size and price is increasingly common.
Now firstly i'm on your side, i want you to get the best product for the best price, but operating costs don't allow me for much movement. I simply cannot compete with the internet giants, nor can i stop stocking skis.
So, yes i've talked to the manufacturers (cagey and unhelpful) and have splinters in my fingers from continually scratching my head.
Do any of you, more business minded folk have any expierence or wisdom for a Short tempered, frustrated bootfitter, whom stands the chance of loosing a part of his job he loves?
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I may be part of the problem, but I still prefer buying my skis from the local shop, I just buy last seasons at cost, the shop sells the skis and i pay 50% of retail.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
Interesting question. As a former retailer I'm wondering does a siginificant proportion of skiers buy new season? If so then then previous season clearance is a true bargain, if not then x%(lets say 70%) of skis are not expected to sell at full price therefore the inevitable price reduction needs to be built into the 1st selling price to ensure a decent margin e.g.
cost price £150
retailer buys 10 pairs - £1500 investment.
retailer sells 3 pairs at full price, say £300
reduces price mid season and sells another 3 pairs at £250
reduces further at end of season and sells another 3 at £200
stuck with 1 pair unsold..
By mid season retailer has only got gross sales of £1650 so profit only £150 so far. At the end of the season total sales are £2250, a total profit of £750 = 50% gross profit. So, to ensure enough profit the retailer will probably pitch the 1st selling price at say, £350 because he knows 3 will sell at that price, helps the cash flow when he has to pay for the skis, he then has a bit of bunce to really knock down the last unsold pair to, say £100 and has still made an extra £50.
simple numbers (and not meant to be representative of the industry) but food for thought.
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Firstly I declare I buy my skis online  for price reasons. In my defence, I haven't wasted any shopkeeper's time and have taken my chances on the right ski.
I have some sympathy with SZK. The big internet giants sell some skis at phenomenal discount eg Fischers, Blizzards and in Sport Conrad cases K2s and Volkl. I do question how the large retailers make it pay or whether some of their stuff is loss leading. I also wonder whether in effect they are clearing out manufacturer's end of year stock. I suspect there isn't a level playing field in terms of the price that these companies are buying their skis for.
I suppose the options are to try and compete with the bilek/conrad model but with added value service eg email question facillity (problems above may still arise) or concentrate on fewer core models, stock more of them and hope you can improve margin that way by getting a greater discount. I think there is still a place for the SZK store. Not everybody is happy to buy off the internet /ebay. As SZK highlights this has been a bad year for ski shops generally-ther eseemd to be huge discounts availiable in St Anton in March last week.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
I think I was posting when you explained your situation. When I was a retailer I focused on the core range that I knew would sell at top margin early in the season, building in effect of priced reductions. The danger of course is to end up with too narrow a range so customers percive lack of choice, so while not necessarily offerign loss leaders I would carry some small margin items but actively sell the high margin stuff - at the end of the day the customer will buy what s/he wants to buy. You could specialise, but this needs to be built into the business plan - effective marketing essential.
A good business plan, focussing on margin, sell through, top 10 etc is essential (don't mean to teach you to suck eggs) as is weekly (or more often for seasonal) review of sales - which products, at what price, at what margin so that you can be flexible in your strategy - if you don't need to reduce the price then fab, if you do then hopefully you've already made the required amount of profit on earlier sales.
You have the benefit of being able to talk to customers and share your wisdom and experience in what is a very personal transaction - if too many people are coming into just to pick your brains perhaps the missing bit is "closing the sale".
Seminars available.....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ianmacd thanks for that would have been ideal as only about a mile from my desk but i need a longer pair!
and in truth i dont have the 350 to spend at the moment so will have a look at what's in store overseas over the summer
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You know it makes sense.
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boredsurfin, I bought my last pair of skis from Lockwoods, previous year's stock on sale through their website at around half price. I live fairly local so I picked them up personally, which saved P&P and gave me a chance to have a quick chat with their staff. Ideal scenario really. Half price skis and good local service.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, As in most other retail segments, as a small player you can never compete with the giant internet companies on price. Your greatest asset is customer service, so that will have to be top notch. Maybe this will be enough to secure a limited number of sales from wealthy locals and tourists who value service and convenience more than bargains. In short, the sort of people who shop at Harrods. I would also take a look at what the big players are actually stocking. Are there any niche products and/or manufacturers they tend not to stock? You could maybe target these and spread your net wider with your own website. I have a friend who owns a mountain bike shop and he now mainly sells very high end stuff that's hard to buy elsewhere on the cheap.
At least boots are never going to sell that well through the internet for obvious reasons, so you should think yourself lucky compared to some other retail sectors!! I gladly paid full retail through Lockwoods for my last pair after a proper fitting session. Saving money on bad fitting boots is never a bargain, but it's hard to go far wrong with skis if you can read a little.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I rent as I really can't be carrying them all over. But I liked the Mantras so much I almost bought them this year. If we use the car more often next year..possibilty..then I'll get a pair.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think uktrailmonster might be onto something here. Maybe a carefully selected mix of "punter" skis which non-discerning people will lap up in huge volumes (B3?  ) and rare skis which are difficult to buy online or at least with discounts online is possibly the way to go.
Also, if you can use your contacts at Dynastar to source some Legend Pros with last year's or the dragon topsheet, I'd be in the market for some of them so I have them in stock when my current ones wear out. Can't bring myself to pay good money for this year's hideous ones
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Arno wrote: |
I think uktrailmonster might be onto something here. Maybe a carefully selected mix of "punter" skis which non-discerning people will lap up in huge volumes (B3? ) and rare skis which are difficult to buy online or at least with discounts online is possibly the way to go.
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A road to Fine&Shill success, but what of the non-Harrod's intense skier types he can talk real skiing with? TGR.no?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| comprex wrote: |
| A road to Fine&Shill success, but what of the non-Harrod's intense skier types he can talk real skiing with? TGR.no? |
the streets of Chamonix are littered with people like that!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, hmmm. Time is money right? Maybe an up front qualifying question - "if I spend 30 minutes having a proper talk with you about skis are you going to buy them from me or buy them online?" Hopefully you will weed out at least some of the tyre kickers...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| "if I spend 30 minutes having a proper talk with you about skis are you going to buy them from me or buy them online?" Hopefully you will weed out at least some of the tyre kickers... |
That line will certainly weed out ALL your potential customers
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I won't be buying anything in 2008 but am not averse to people giving me stuff  . However when I do dip my hand in my wallet I buy local because even with skis there are often reasons to go back to the store. I appreciate why people on the island buy mail-order though as the UK shops don't always have the product at the price.
I took a look at the new Silvretta FR800 freetouring ski and the updated Silvretta Pure Freeride binding over a few days recently
Silvretta Freerando FR800 - Google video
This is Silvretta's top of the line ski for next season and will retail at around 400 euros which isn't too bad for a ski in this category. Nice graphics, very light - the pair we put on the scales was under 2800 grammes in 175cm which is less than the B3 Squad, Atomic Sweet Daddy or even the Dynafit Mustagh Ata. The Pure Freeride bindings are very easy to use and I didn't manage to break them although I'm pretty light on bindings.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, get in with a finance provider so you can offer finance when you sell skis to people with maxed out credit cards or insufficient funds in bank.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm pretty careful with my brass as a rule, but for the important kit - skis and boots - I'll always use a local supplier if at all possible.
They let you test, are there if there's a problem and (on a pair of Mrs Moshas' boots) happy to do a free shell stretch three years after purchase.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER: In the same way that professional bootfitting is now a paid add-on to the basic cost of a boot, why not offer a "custom ski fitting" service? Charge, say, Euro100 for a half hour consultation and on-mountain test of three models of ski - a couple of hours each ski. Euro50 knocked off the price of any of the skis if bought within 14 days.
I would not recommend rebating the whole cost of your service against purchase of a pair of skis (maybe 2 pairs, yes), as this makes your added service 'free' to customers who buy. Free advice is generally reckoned to be worth what you pay for it; if you believe your advice and service adds value, charge for it. A Euro50 rebate on the chosen ski should help offset the price advantage of the discounters, and if the customer still buys discount online, at least you pocket Euro100 for your time and trouble.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PaulClark, Perfect, thanks! That's how we'll set things up for next season. I'm over the moon.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, PaulClark, would you offer a satisfaction guarantee? If the advice is worth paying for then you should be reasonably confident of a happy outcome...
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David Murdoch, Good point.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PaulClark wrote: |
SMALLZOOKEEPER: In the same way that professional bootfitting is now a paid add-on to the basic cost of a boot, why not offer a "custom ski fitting" service? Charge, say, Euro100 for a half hour consultation and on-mountain test of three models of ski - a couple of hours each ski. Euro50 knocked off the price of any of the skis if bought within 14 days.
I would not recommend rebating the whole cost of your service against purchase of a pair of skis (maybe 2 pairs, yes), as this makes your added service 'free' to customers who buy. Free advice is generally reckoned to be worth what you pay for it; if you believe your advice and service adds value, charge for it. A Euro50 rebate on the chosen ski should help offset the price advantage of the discounters, and if the customer still buys discount online, at least you pocket Euro100 for your time and trouble. |
The slight flaw in this concept is that the buyer is already paying considerably more for the skis than if they purchased from a warehouse supplier. Why wouldn't they just pay 100 Euros for the demo and then buy the skis they liked best on-line? Probably saving considerably more than the 50 Euro loss on the demo? If I was buying from any shop in resort at retail prices, I would expect a full demo rental refund and plenty of free advice. The difference between retail and internet prices is effectively the added value of the personal service.
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Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster, what if he saved you carriage fees by including the post-holiday tune and P&P back in the resort retail price?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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At Central sport Wengen you can test skis all you want, you simply pay rental. If you buy they discount you the rent. Added bonus is there are 10 Intersport stores in the Jungfrau region which all allow you to swap gear, whatever (jungfrau region intersport) store you rented from, and they have stores up the mountain, so you don't have to come back to the village....
This late in the season (skis are 30% off) that gives you a deal which is hard/impossible to beat with Ebay.
The normal retail prices are a bit steep though.... Last year, after doing lots of reseach after skis that may suit me, I simply rented a day, and then ordered off ebay.
Saved me 250+ euros (counting rent and shipping!)
Does make if there is a problem with the ski its hard to take them back though... (no problems with my Voelkls though)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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do the chamonix shops buy individually from the manufacturers or could you get together to form buying groups to get better prices from the manufacturers. Charging for advice on skis isn't going to get off the ground. The problem that you have is the difference between shop prices and web prices is too big. If the differential was less as happened in other areas it makes sense to take advantage of the personal service
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I do as Ronald does...demo/hire top skis. The only thing that stops me buying is...restricted to carrying one ski at a time. Who lugs more than that FFS, carriage costs on plans where applicable, servicing costs, bags to carry it in etc etc and general hassle. I am often on trains and buses and it just aint no fun lugging all that around. As good fun as the Mantra was, I tsill never bought it. Next year or the year after they will/should have a new best ski.
I made just one mistake and that was turning up in a French town on a French holiday and ended up on Pocket Rockets. What a crap crap super crap ski. About as bent as Clary on hairdressers day in an Alpha.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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boredsurfin, don't joke - he might do it - we knew our local deli was having trouble with its suppliers when the cold meats started appearing in packets identical to those from Lidl but at 3 times the price.
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stoatsbrother, Similar to Lidl's Gateaux on sale in Waitrose with a similar mark up
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| JT wrote: |
| The only thing that stops me buying is...restricted to carrying one ski at a time. Who lugs more than that FFS... |
That'd be me then.
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Mosha Marc, Good luck to you if you want to do it...it doesn't work for me the way I go on ski trips.
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FAQ
. I could have gone to SZK and said I wanted 90mm underfoot, I'd try the Missions and the Karmas (which I have this season), decide that I was way happier with 75mm underfoot and then not purchase anything - would I want my 100 euros back? Of course yes. 
