Title Edit: There's always room for Improvement!

A snowHead

Hi Folks

So where do the boots with the 'walking' adjustment on them fit into all this? They must allow for variation for flex and different leg positions in the walking mode which must all affect the position of the toe in the boot. I guess they must be fitted for skiing since that is the purpose they are largely intended for, but given that a walking position is also deliberately incorporated does this complicate matters with the toe fit?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Megamum, my view (which clearly isn't shared universally) is that the toes shouldn't butt when walking around. You might be walking quite a bit during the day, in various situations.

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veeeight, Given that the average Zeppa Angle is 15 degrees forward of 90degrees(75 degrees Toofy Grin

), a skiboot is designed to have a 10 degree pivot (size dependant, my figures are quoted for 26.5). Therefore we need to assume we are able to achive dorsiflexion of 25 degrees. Some people can achieve this( although increasingly fewer), some can exceed it (myself being one) and some come no where near. This one's reason for boot balancing and the main contribution to peoples problems achieving comfort in ski boots today. (That is unless i've fitted them, in which case the problem is blatent incompetance. Toofy Grin

)

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David Goldsmith,This takes me back. You remind me of this guy who lived down the road from me when i was a kid. He was alot older than me, but i kicked his ass at Football, BMX any other kind persuit we both enjoyed. After a while, he would just chase me around the playing fields waving a stick with dogshite on the end. Toofy Grin

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I always thought that, say a 27 and 27.5 sole length were the same but with a thinner inner in the .5 size to allow more room and the 28 sole length would obviously be longer. Is that right or is it manufacturer specific.

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Pharaoh, Welcome to snowHeads, lurk no longer

and also welcome to the merry band of Colin's satisfied customer's Very Happy

snow reports

Pharaoh, welcome to snowHeads! Glad you had a good experience with CEM; I took advantage of his services at the start of the season and also benefited from his expertise.

gsb, that's certainly the case with the Nordica boots I've just bought - the shell is 27/27.5.

You know it makes sense.

gsb, Shells are 27-27.5 or 28-28.5 etc, liners depend on brand and are often just thickness of faux footbed. Some brands are 7.5-8 same shell, such as Scarpa and Atomic B series, but these are exceptions not the rule.
I don't understand your point regarding .5 sizes and 28 shells. Sorry.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I think there's a big difference when trying to stand erect between "just touching" or "feeling" the ends of the boots and "butting" the ends of the boots. I certainly wouldn't be happy for my toes to be "butting" the ends as this implies they are forced into the front of the boot with toes scrunched up. I read what SZK has said as meaning that the toes should be able to "touch" or "feel" the end of the boot through the liner which is cool - it certainly doesn't sound like the toes should be mashed into the end of the boot.

A snowHead

petemillis, Mine feel like that - when I stand still I'm slightly aware that I feel the shell of the boot with my big toe, if I flex as though I'm skiing the toe moves back and I can no longer feel the boot shell - when I explained this to the chap that fitted them he said that sounded about right - after one week of skiing I had no marks on my feet or 'black toe nails' so I guess they weren't too small

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

boredsurfin & rob@rar Thanks for the welcome.

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Pharaoh, Only 7 days of comfort left then! Toofy Grin

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Cheeky monkey

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As promised, my feedback on the CEM experience Shocked

Bear in mind, these boots had only had a week's wear in February (light skiing with wife & very young kids).

First up, a weekend with the boys, skiing hard. From the first run and for the rest of the first morning, I was overjoyed. Every small movement transferred immediately to the skis which responded beautifully to every input. Very very big Very Happy

.

At lunchtime, they were beginning to feel a bit tight and after the first run after lunch I had to stop because I was in so much discomfort. CEM had added some thin insoles beneath my footbeds to take up some of the extra volume. So, over a chocolat chaud, I whipped out the extra insoles, put the footbeds back in and skiied happily for the rest of the day with very little difference in responsiveness. The same for the rest of the weekend although I did have a bit of discomfort over the knuckle of my little toe and in my heels which were feeling pinched. Not enought to spoil the weekend and the verdict after 3 days: Smile

.

I phoned CEM after getting back and he managed to fit me in the following day as I was off skiing again the following weekend. CEM explained that I was right to remove the insoles and suggested I might need to put them back in once the liner had packed down a bit. He removed some of the thickness of the extra foam he'd put in to prevent them from pinching my heel and stretched the shell to accomodate my ackward toe joint.

Three days later, I was back on the slopes a very satisfied customer. After the fourth day, I put the insole back my right boot (slightly smaller foot) and expect that I'll need to put the other one in when I next ski. Otherwise, pretty happy with the difference.

All in all, I can highly recommend a visit for those umm-ing and ahh-ing.

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My boots performed very well at Easter. Very comfy apart from one day when I got a terrible rubbing feeling on the soft bit of skin between the inner ankle bone and the heel. Skied on (coz I'm hard) and at the end of the day had a look. Had rubbed that much skin away my sock was bloody, it was almost a hole Shocked

Worked out that when putting the boot on I had been careless and had managed to crease/fold the inner skin of the liner and this was what had produced the wear. We had some proper blister plasters bought in La Rosiere the previous year and I must sing their praises. they seem to produce a gel that protects the wound, absolutely fantastic, but boy do they hum when you take them off 4 days later Embarassed

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SZK,

isn't talk of getting the lower leg vertical irrelevant for boots without a walk mode? The cuff in most ski boots simply wont go vertical will it? In the X-Waves I can only get my lower leg vertical by standing on my heel with my toe lifted. In my Denalis - IN WALK MODE - I can get the lower leg vertical with my toe on the floor. This is just a reflection of the way the boots are designed.

Coming back to your original point, I find I ski worse when my feet are in pain. Comfort is important. I also find that even if boots are comfortable in a skiing position, if they are painful in a walking or standing in a queue position then by the end of the day the feet will feel sore even in a good skiing position.

Net net I don't think bootfitters can hide behind an argument that "of course they won't be comfortable if they are a good performance fit" because in the end lack of comfort hurts performance (if you want to wear them all day rather than just take them off between races).

No?

J

With ref to the original point, I certainly agree that the boot shouldn't hurt. "As tight as possible before it starts hurting" is the rule I would use. Last year as result of the liner compressing my left boot started pressing badly against the ankle. so badly that it was no longer a question of skiing better or worse, I just couldn't go on! I took it to a shop they streched the boot a bit, then a bit more till the fit improved. And last January I had a custom liner made which made so much difference.
But it is tricky with brand new boots, which may hurt a bit initially (mine did and gave me minor cramps for 2-3 days) but after a few days when the liner has packed a bit they may feel fine.

Jedster, in fact I doubt that even pro racers' boots hurt their feet - altho this is my personal, un-expert opinion.

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The thread needs a re-read fellas. No boots shouldn't hurt. But when a fitter starts work with you, you'll wonder if they will hurt. When they don't you'll be relived and no doubt ski better. You'll say to yourself, "Next time i'll try and get them even tighter, to improve more."
I have just been working on my Boots. They're supertight, so tight. No they don't hurt, but, i have worn more comfortable ski boots, but ones that i would have less control at speed in. Cool

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I've just been skiing with Fastman....

He skis pretty damn well.... and certainly matches his name...

but his boots are so loose he doesn't notice when the buckles undo themselves....

so I question if it is really necessary to have supertight boots for control if all else is good (he has good alignment with stock footbeds adn set up)

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little tiger, Easy answer, look at the World Cup, are there boots undone? Are their boots loose? Cool

SZK - please let the people know exactly how fast you are going in these super tight boots....As I feel if you are skiier going this fast you really do not give 2 shits that it is a bit uncomfortable. Also I see lots of top skiers just undo their buckles when they are on lifts, walkign etc and this seems to relieve the discomfot some what.

Also kinda on my question on ski touring, this does involve alot of hiking, climbing walking etc. Are these boots much less tight?

You know it makes sense.

SMALLZOOKEEPER,

ah so you are a WC skier?

or anyone else here is?

I haven't seen many folks ski at anything like the speeds Fastman skis at and he is not cranking down boots until his feet go numb... he simply skis with VERY good technique.... (actually I have seen an austrian B team member and ex WC racer and Michael Milton ski faster but i think that is it)

Sort of strikes me as similar to the good skiers i know that ski ice with lovely control on skis with no edges.... they simply use better technique than the rest of the general population..... does not mean WC skis are not tuned to precision... just that for recreational skiing it is simply NOT necessary to have such perfect equipment given the level of technique being used by the general population....

and that investing in technique may give results that last longer than those from purchasing more gear

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

little tiger,

http://www.vadus.cz/products/57/315106_Worldcup%20i%5B2%5D.SL%20Chip%20Set.gif

Look at the link and then tell me the ski isn't beautiful! I want to be WC please!

A snowHead

little tiger, No, i'm not a WC skier, read the inital post, it was a philisophical point for descussion. I am however a Bootfitter whom tries to offer the best fit possible without causing discomfort. Cool

little tiger, You questioned whether it's important to have super tight boots for control, so i have gone to the extreme, Racers do search for a tight fit and do do their buckles up, for more control, precision, blah, blah, blah. rolling eyes

A snowHead

little tiger,
I don't really follow your argument. Great skiers can ski far better than the rest of us due to their technique and I would rather swap for their technique than their equipment.
But decent equipment can help at any level, sharp edges sure as heck benefit me in icy conditions. I am not saying that the last word in boot fit is essential but having well fitting boots may help anyone I guess.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Surely it's like this - there are different shaped boots, there are different shaped feet. Most boots will fit some feet well, but some feet won't have any suitable boot available. So for feet with no suitable boot available then the job of the bootfitter is to customise a boot to make it boot fit, rather than just shove the foot into a bigger boot that slops around. It's when the foot is put into a boot that is too wide/loose at the heel, or too wide/of high at the forefoot that the control is not so great. By taking the boot that fits close for most of the foot but is parhaps too tight somewhere, then altering the too tight bits to make it comfortable, and perhaps by switching footbeds to support the foot better, then the bootfitter has prodiced a well fitting boot.

As for skiing in loose boots - I'm happy to ski with buckles undone or boots so loose that I don't notice the buckles undo, and although I know I'd never be really fast like FastMan or a WC racer, I can ski at a fair ol' speed provided the piste is good and I'm only skiing medium to long turns. But I find that I need to tighten them to get better response in bumps, on steeper terrain and when I'm doing short turns or having a bash at jump turns. Yeah, I now my technique could be much better, but the fact is, if a boot is loose then the ski will lag behind when you want to steer it/swivel it. For skiing edge to edge (carved turns), provided there is plenty of lateral support (which most boots seem to have now) then I don't think the boots need to be so tight as when you want to "steer" the skis. And also, when you're carving turns on the edges then the ski is going to be more stable than when you've got the skis flat on the snow - going straight line with skis flat on the snow is another time when loose boots show up as the skis yaw more - and this is going to be more noticeable with shorter deep sidecut skis compared with longer straigth skis of days past.

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Actually, I suppose loose boots are a bit like a Land Rover - quite a lot of slack in the steering so you tend to get a bit of wandering and need constant correction when steaming along in a straight line. But when you're going around a bend then the steering is pulling against the forces and it tightens up and is pretty stable.

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I suggest you all cut your buckles off your ski boots, it would seem the manufacturers just put them there for show and real skiers don't use them. Toofy Grin

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Absolutely, buckles are for bondage bennys only Laughing

Here's an odd thing - something that's really quite difficult with sloppy boots is a decent snowplough as the skis tend to wobble about on the ends of your legs. So why do beginners always end up in sloppy boots?

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My ski instructor actually tightened my buckles up for me half way through the week - so its a good job I hadn't cut my buckles off wink

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little tiger,

For you, your thing is instruction, for others it's kit. Some people have a limited amount of snow time, possibly don't want to spend it all taking lessons/coasching but they do recognise they can compensate for some of this lack of experience with cash spent on kit that will help them.

Other threads recently have clearly identified that not everyone actually cares about the perfect carved turn they are off somewhere else doing something that is more interesting to them.

It's unfair to hold everyone up to the standards of accomplished racers - of course they are better at most things ski related. They are however very fussy about their kit when racing however. If a bit-part premiership football player strolled onto a Sunday league pitch he'd make everyone look pretty stupid too.

Help!!

Title Edit: There's always room for Improvement!

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