 Poster: A snowHead
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Had quite a few skis this week; a few thoughts
K2 Outlaw, 181... longer than some 185's...??? nice solid ski and copes with everything... not so knocked out with it even though ALL the guides here use them... 88mm waist
Black Diamond Havocs 183 with Fritshi Freeride Plus..... had to jack these bindings up for deep stuff but they worked ok...... and with this set-up they are extremely light. Work well on hard tracks, easy to chuck around and float well at 88mm. A very good ski.
I tried them with an alpine binding and just as good, good on edge and cope with all sorts. They would be wasted if you wanted a bump ski or piste ski but they do well enough here but there forte is off the back.
Salomon Pocket Rockets 185.. these were the only ones left in Serre C as it is half term here..that or 8000's and I know about them... despite not fancying them, I had seen fatbob's bro ski them very well so I thought.......
Big mistake....... ffffing awful ski, too soft and skittish.... they wanted to turn all the time but never felt stable doing it........
They were only 15eu for the PM........... and that was eleventy-eight millions pounds too much.
Tomorow I have Kilowatts in 185 courtesy of the wonderful Black Diamond test centre here
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kilowatts.... I think they had a bad tune so not the ski I thought they might be.... but they performed well in the deeper stashes we found.
A back country ski and ok on the piste if you are there getting to more interesting places.
I will not say much more due the ski not being in a great demo condition IMV
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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JT, Having seen the conditions, I'm not sure you'd have noticed grotty edges and dry bases 
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JT,
Did the Havocs float better than the Outlaws?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB,
Probably, but a more useful ski allround in these types of conditions, IMV. I didn't mind the Outlaw but the Havocs were made for this stuff. If you brought the piste into the equation then the Outlaws would be on par but as an off-piste ski the Havocs gets it. Very very light but still beefy enough to crash through stuff
marc gledhill, The BD test skis have been hammered and weren't so comfortable on the 4 o'clock run.... or at least the Kilowatt wasn't..... this wouldn't normally be a prob but Serre C has the most dangerous home run ever...... its carnage.........
Found a pair of Mantras today (2006) and they worked well in the gullies and soft stuff... I'll go back for them tomorrow as we are staying here
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB,
I don'y know how light you need your gear but the Havocs with Fritschis were very light to carry and throw around... I am not used to those AT bindings but in deep stuff it wasn't an issue.
Just for good measure, I tried a pr of B3's as they were the only ones around in LP and I can see why they are very popular and available. Although not the newest of skis they will be in most resorts in adundance so hence the mention.
The conditions were soft snow on piste and spring off it. These skis cruise throw that stuff all day and are very manageable. Not normally a ski of my choice but a dam good one and up there with Recons ( probably better ) and the like if you want to go all over and try a few things off the side whilst being very much at home on piste for all but the bullet hardpark. I didn't get to try them there but there would be better choices, I imagine. I am not saying they can't go there but if that is all the conditions had to offer, I would be thinking of SL/GS and not the B3...and not the Recon and the like either.
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brian
brian
Guest
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| JT wrote: |
Salomon Pocket Rockets 185.. despite not fancying them, I had seen fatbob's bro ski them very well so I thought.......
.... they wanted to turn all the time |
That explains a lot 
I really enjoyed the Kilowatts but then again our last day in LG wasn't exactly average snow conditions. I still have serious doubts any ski is going to "do it all" if you include man made set-to-concrete in the all ...
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brian,
I thought the BD's skis could have done with a tune... I'd need to try the Kilowatts again...hopefully all graphic'd up...
and thats another reason to go back...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Have you finished playing yet JT????
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kitenski,
The music night wasn't so bad - good fun, really, but the funniest thing was that the landlord just gets rid of any guests that don't like it and thats another story..
I am back here now..planning/scheaming another trip this season..am nursing a battered body tho'
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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fatbob,
Basically, a punter complained that we started up at about 22:00 and we can not be serious about making this noise...it wasn't loud as BC was having a conversation with Richjp in front of me whilst I was playing...
Robin wasn't too happy about someone spoiling his night so told the guy there and then to pack his bags now and f*** off. He relented and said he could stay the night but to be gone in the morning.... Eventually Robin paid the guys weekly bill and was most satisfied to deal with the 'rogue' punter...
we had a better session the following night when Joe Suitcase eventually turned up with Hal the American guitarist...who could really play..and had a good bash...
No one dared complain this time around...
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You should always start earlier.
Gives you longer to play then, unless of course the set is seriously short and would require repeating. Then support is required:}
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You know it makes sense.
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nice one JT!! 
One more trip for me to La Tania over Easter, unless I can get a sneaky spring trip to Scotland in.....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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JT,
Thanks for the feedback.
I've heard good and bad about the Havocs before, as you say not so good on piste but great off-piste.
http://www.telemarkski.com/html/rvw_black_diamond_havoc.html
The Karhu Jak BC has slightly wider dimensions but is even lighter than the Havoc.
http://www.telemarkski.com/html/rvw_karhu_jakbc.html
I'm basically looking for a ski to replace my Mojo 90's with (124-89-117), light enough to skin up but study enough to deal with variable conditions. The Mantra is also on the "consideration list" but it's heavier than the above two pairs of touring skis. How did the Mantra compare to the others? (on and off piste).
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, take advantage of the cheap dollar and get yourself one of this lot's offerings:
www.dpsskis.com
my lotus 120s got their first run-out in la grave and they were great fun on pretty much everything (didn't test them on hardpack and I doubt they'd be great there tho). but they are 120mm underfoot; 190cm long and LESS THAN 2KG PER SKI!
i'm thinking one of the wailer models with dynafit bindings would be a super-light (about 1.5kg per ski, maybe less), high performance touring set-up
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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brian
brian
Guest
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He is a man of rather forthright opinions. Dynastar, French guides, smokers .... all in for a verbal pasting. 
Still he keeps a good selection of malts, so mustn't grumble ...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Arno,
Thanks but at my weight/size a 175cm Wailer would probably be enough, but 910 dollars and I have to wait until August 2007? The weight and construction looks fantastic though.
The Havoc link brings me to a "Sorel Caribou Boot" it asks for an email address before I can log in but I'll probably then get spamed. If you would be so kind, what's the deal on the Havocs?
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DB, too late - SAC sell an item until it runs out then put a new one up. they're reputable though - i've bought a few things there and don't get spammed
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Arno,
Just out of interest, approx how much were the Havocs?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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OK, here're my thoughts on what we had last week. FWIW I'm 181cm tall, weigh somewhere just above 90kg (and normall carry a 5-10kg pack ), and normally ski moderately agressively. Up until now I've skied on Dynastar Legend 8000s in 184, which I love for their versatility, but I really need a bit more support than they can give me now in softer snow - so I've been looking in the 90mm underfoot range, the widest I've skied up to now has been 89mm.
The skis I tried/rented were, for one day each except where stated:
Stockli Stormrider DP Pros 184 (3 days)
Black Diamond Havoc 2008 183 / Freeride+ bindings
Black Diamond Kilowatt 2008 185 / BD demo/rental bindings
Black Diamond Verdict 2007 180 / Freeride+ bindings
Movement Pow Pow 193 / Vist bindings
Stockli Stormriders, same pair as above
Atomic Sweet Daddys 2006 181 / some type of rental binding
Stormriders
length 184, sidecut: 125-94-111, radius 29.4m, wt 4.2kg
Conditions were essentially powder through and through  , some steep, some not so, with some nice soft bumps, a few sections of track and trees for variety. Vis varyied from good to non-existent. When the rental guy pulled them out of the rack (after I'd turned my nose up at a few other skis) I was a little nervous as these have a legendary reputation as a balls out ski. From the moment I put these on though I knew they were a Stockli ski - with a fantastic edge grip on the hard windblown start of the run and they gave me total confindence in the ski's stability. Once I could relax into them (and the terrain) and allow myself to push them, the more fun I had. These are a truly great ski if you're willing to work them. I could stick them on any edge angle I felt like, push or float, rail or slide and they did just about exactly what I wanted. The only time they left me a bit stranded though was when really slowing down to accomodate zero vis, when it became pretty hard work to get them to turn with anything other than a jump. On the fourth day out with them we had a bit more piste to go at (in Serre Chevalier), and they worked pretty well there too. On the final run (a bit slushy, but nicely empty) I really let them go, and they railed long radius carves very nicely, and tighter ones pretty well provided you were going fast enough. Edging them one-footed on either inside or outside edges was quite feasible, but nowhere near as easy as on my Legends. One you got the balance point for that outside edge though they held it fine.
Havocs
length 183, sidecut: 122-88-114, radius about 23m, weight about 3.6kg
I'd tried these at the PSB on rock-hard piste and was pretty impressed. Now was the chance to try them in what they should be skied in. Unfortunately this day we didn't have the light and fluffy powder in Serre Che that we had had in LG, and had a fair bit of breakable crust, so I couldn't give them a direct comparison with the DP Pros. The piste preformance was still everything I'd remembered from the PSB, and while obviously not a race ski, I'd be more than happy taking these through a GS course on 'normal' piste conditions. I was a bit surprised though that I didn't get quite the support and stability I'd expected in the softer snow, even though we didn't find anything too fluffy - and I wasn't brilliantly happy on these in the breakable crust. They were light enough though to go for agressive punch runs through the crust and they felt pretty good in that - but I'm too old to keep that up for more than 100m now (and was never competent enough to try that when i was younger  ). One-footed carving on-piste though was a ball on these, and if anything they felt more versatile riding the outside edge than the DPs (I even managed to do a one footed outside edge tight carve into a hockey stop...not sure if I could repeat that though).
Kilowatts
length 185, sidecut: 127-95-116, radius 24.5m, wt 3.7kg
Ah ha....this is it baby! The skis were issued with a warning that there's a ding in one edge, and marked with L&R. After a bit of a clean up with my file and stone, and a bit of Notwax, though it's in not at all bad shape. We're once again at Serre Che, and still no light and fluffy powder, but a reasonable about of moderate weight deep fresh snow, with still a bit of crust but quite a bit softer than yesterday. This ski doesn't have quite the on-piste performance of the Havocs, and the wider underfoot makes it noticeably harder to get those outside edge carves going, but they still just about work. In the steep and deep though these are just a ball - back to the Stormrider confidence, but with more manouevrability at low speeds too - and they cut through the crust with superb stability. Shame about the deathly boring graphics - beige with some fiddly stuff on the tails that you can't see when you're skiing them (they may even blend into the snow when in whiteout conditions  ).
Verdicts
length 180, sidecut: 128-98-116, radius 26.6m, wt 3.9kg
Next one up, and very noticeably different to the Kilowatts. Today (in LDA) the visibility was pretty poor and flat light, but you could generally see at least 50-150m ahead, so not too bad - and we got oodles of genuine powder again (although nothing much above knee level). The ski is very poorly prepared though, and half way through the morning needs an emergency application of Notwax. That 2m on the ski radius is very noticeable when trying to carve on piste - you have to be going very fast to lean into the turn, but mostly you need a lot of angulation to avoid overbalancing. They also don't hold anything like the edge of any of the previous 3 skis, so lots of turns end up being rather skiddy, and carving the outside edge is almost impossible - get enough angle to hold the edge and you're on the point of overbalancing (at least at the speeds I was willing to let them go to). The edge grip was also almost non-existent when trying take them through 'normal' bumps (i.e. not ice hard, but not much loose snow) or the rain-crust concrete on the Valentin (but to be fair that was a pretty hard test). On the soft stuff they were great though: light enough for twisting around in jump turns and a great platform for landing on the steepest fluffiest stuff we could find. I was also a bit surprised that they did feel quite a bit shorter than their nominal 180cm - although I didn't compare them against any other skis to check that. Overall, seemed to me too much of a specialist deep snow/big mountain ski for most European conditions, whereas I got none of that feeling with the Kilowatts.
Pow Pows
length 193, 125-92-113, radius 26m, wt 4.1kg
Back to Serre Che, with a load of fresh snow (although still fairly wet) and blue skies for this one. But this is the agony after the ecstacy. I find it almost impossible to turn these skis and spend most of the day desperately trying to hang on to balance and any degree of confidence whatever when veering from the straight line - they're clearly way too much ski for me, or maybe I'm just not coping with the added length. This really surprises me as I've had no trouble with 29m radius skis before (Legend 8800s in 188 and the Stormriders above). The most galling thing is that JT and BernardC are clearly having a ball in all this soft snow (JT on the Mantras I for some unknown reason passed over to try these out) and I just want the day to end. By the end of the day I do just about work out how to ski these Fitzwilliams, but it's a tough job.
Sweet Daddies
length 183, 119-80-105, radius 21m, wt probably about 3.1kg
Just a morning on these at La Plagne. Conditions: bluebird day, lots of new snow the previous day and a half, but it was very wet when it fell, so it's very crusty now. Avalanches all around us too, so don't really go off piste too much. I've never really got on with Atomic skis much before (hated the R9/9.22 etc), but the Daddy series seems to get a lot of good press, so was interested in giving these a try (would actually have preferred trying the Snoops but the shop didn't have any of those). These clearly had more mainstream piste performance than most of those above, and although I hate to admit it, probably better than my (now dead ) 8000s. I wasn't nearly so convinced by their performance off piste though, where I think the 8000s do a much better job - I remember them feeling much more responsive and lively. But maybe it's just the pretty unforgiving conditions though, and I'm also starting to get a bit tired at the end of the week (and my knees are trying to tell me to slow down a bit  ).
So the conclusion of this is that I'm probably going to be looking for the Kilowatts when they come out (there are some pre-release ones out but a bit $$$$ atm) - I clearly took to them way more than did JT. I'd mount them with Freeride+ bindings and give them a bit of a tryout with uphill stuff too. They may be a bit heavy for full week tours, and I'm not sure my skinning technique is quite up to taking a ski this wide across a steep traverse, so some experimentation will be required to see if these really are my do-it-all ski. If someone wanted to donate me a pair of DP Pros though, I'm sure my arm could be twisted  .
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I love the Mantras and was quite pleased when Graham passed them over... and I couldn't understand the probs he had with the Pow Pow when he handled the DP's so well. I can't imagine they are more ski tha the DP's but sometimes just that extra piece of lenght will write off a ski and put them out of a comfort zone. Some skis just aren't the right size IMV
I didn't rave about the Kilowatts and I had them in L2A... I am inclined to put down my lukewarm impression to the bad tune. I think Black Diamond are on the right track with their ski range so I would give the Kilowatts the benefit of another go. Loved their Carbon fibre adjustable poles....$99 will be getting me a pair, for sure.
DB, the Mantra skis light for 96mm and I think you should at least try one as they are a very good ski, IMV. They are certainly my find of the year so far. I thought they were very manageable with rental bindings.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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JT,
Were you on the red 05/06 Mantras or these?
http://www.sport-conrad.com/ArtikelDetail.asp?Kategorie=&ArtNummer=70001038
There doesn't look to be too much weight diff between the Mantras and a proper touring ski of similar size. I've got a pair of Volkl snowwolfs for longer tours but it sounds like the Mantras might be the ticket for downhill biased day tours. I'll probably try the Mantras and Scott Santiago Missions next time I get over to St Anton.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB,
I've been on the 05/06's which are a cool slate colour and the red 06/07's or however they date them I think they are both 94mm altho the tech told me 96mm.
I love the new look so I'll be on them asap but they are a bit bigger, it appears
I think the Mantras are a grown-up 8000...not tried the 8800's. I hope that doesn't put you off and I'm not so much a fan of the 8000 but I know they are well regarded. The Mantra is a bollicking ski IMHO. I'd take it anywhere. I think its is a better ski than the Mission or rather I'd go for the Mantra in a hire-shop over the Mission any day of the week and twice on sundays. Not that the Mission is any way a bad ski..far from it based on my hardpack PSB trial
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FAQ
Havoc fans should look on 