 Poster: A snowHead
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I've just returned from Arabba (I might have mentioned this before  ), and things are dawning on me regarding run grading...
...on Wednesday I skied a blue run mid-afternoon covered in large piles of soft snow, which I found far harder to ski than a black I skied on Friday which was in beautiful condition, wide but bleedin' steep.
...these black runs are nothing to write home about - it's just a way of keeping the riff-raff off.
...sort of arising from the above - run grading is just a measure of the steepness of part of the run, and not much to do with the difficulty of the run, which varies through the day and from day to day according to conditions.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 18-02-07 20:10; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Okay - so I'm a bit slow on the uptake - I've only been skiing 8 weeks or so...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When I was in La Ros lat month I was able to ski a black right down to La Thuile on the Italian side. There was one part of it that was scarily steep, but it was totally empty and very well pisted, this made it a real treat to ski.
I generally don't enjoy skiing black, but have noticed the crowds stay off them, and if this is the case they can be really good.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hoppo,
Oh, nice trace by the way. How long did it take to go right around?
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It also depends on what market the resort is targeting, depending on the target market they decide to have a certain number of blue,red or black runs and therefore decide on what to grade a run accordingly
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johnboy, we were going from about 9am until 2:15pm with 45 minutes for lunch - clockwise direction. We tried to do it anti-clockwise but turned back at Selva because it was shut due to high winds.
I made a better trace here, using GPSVisualizer - I'm still fiddling about with the GPS stuff - it's the first time I've tried it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hoppo, I've been on green cat-tracks that were blue ice and a nightmare of pain and lack of control and blacks that were covered in six inches of dense powder that left me with a 'woody' that an ice bath couldn't kill . . . it's all about conditions and the resorts have to find a median. You'll find that every resort will grade accordingly to its perceived market.
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FISH
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, FFS will you stop sniffing you fingers 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hoppo,
Nice pics on there. Definately worthy of a place in next year's calendar. It looks really beautiful.
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johnboy, CP and aidancostello advised me that it was scenic - what they meant was there were enormous rocky mountains all over the place! Really is spectacular - I want to go back, now preferably...
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You know it makes sense.
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Hoppo, It is also very good for walking in the summer
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Green – pisted
Blue – pisted
Green – unpisted
Green – icy
Green -slushy
Red – pisted
Black – pisted
Blue – unpisted/bumps
Blue – icy
Red unpisted/bumps
Black –unpisted/bumps
Red –icy
Blue – slushy
Black- icy
Red/Black- slushy
My personal piste guide grading system (from my limited experience)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Piste grading isn't cobblers, but it is relative to the "difficulty" of others slopes in the same resort. So a black piste in one resort is (by definition) one of the harder runs in that resort, but could (in theory!) be easier that a green run in a different resort.
And difficulty assumes the same conditions - and not necessarily the same day. So a black runs covered in bumps will normally be more difficult that a red run covered in bumps in the same resort, but on a particular day, you may find the red run *is* covered in bumps, whilst the black run isn't: meaning you may find the black run easier (assuming you can handle steepness better than bumps).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's an old chestnut but I still wish the resorts would put some sort of objective grading on. It needn't be instead of the current system either - could still have the blacks that are the most difficult runs in the resort, but if they simply added "ave gradient X, max gradient Y" I'm sure it would help a huge number of aspiring skiers
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just a comment from my very limited perspective. I've been working the simplest blue run, about 500yds long - it's assigned blue. I can do this run reasonably confidently and in control when the snow is soft and the edges grip - but when it rained warm rain and then proceeded to freeze it become reminiscent of an inclined ice rink and even experienced skiers said to me that it was unpleasant and difficult to ski on - which is exactly what I found. In fact I skied it everyday for 7 days and it wasn't the same twice - even within 1 day it had a variety of different textures and they all affected how it skied.
I was a bit surprised that where the grooming machine had passed across the surface that it had left a series of bumps - a bit like 'stiches' across a field - once these froze even on the flatest part of the piste they were awkward until they softened.
II, I can see where you're coming from.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum,
I can deal with all but the last 2
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I haven't skied in the Dolomites, but was told this by a friend. He said that the piste grading was all over the place, but after a week this is what he decided. At the top of each lift, the piste was graded relative to the difficulty of the other slopes leaving that lift. The easiest was blue, more difficult red, and the hardest black. It didn't matter that at the next lift, the black was easier than the previous blue.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Of course, he usually talks a pile of s.......te so why this would be any different.
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| II wrote: |
Green – pisted
Blue – pisted
Green – unpisted
Green – icy
Green -slushy
Red – pisted
Black – pisted
Blue – unpisted/bumps
Blue – icy
Red unpisted/bumps
Black –unpisted/bumps
Red –icy
Blue – slushy
Black- icy
Red/Black- slushy
My personal piste guide grading system (from my limited experience) |
Nice idea - I love slush and hate bumps/ice so I'd be...
Green - slushy
Green – good snow, groomed
Blue - slushy
Blue – good snow groomed
Green – icy
Red - slushy
Red – pisted
Blue – unpisted/bumps
Black – good snow, groomed
Blue – icy
Red unpisted/bumps
Black – unpisted/bumps
Red –icy
Black- icy
Odd exceptions aside blacks have always seemed to me to be definately more difficult (steeper, narrower) - it's just that if you have a busy icy red, versus a less traffic-d and thus better snow black you might be better off on the black overall. Nothing beats the 'new trousers please' experience that is an icy black imo though - if you aren't sure of conditions I really don't think black runs should be taken lightly!
aj xx
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| Hoppo wrote: |
I've just returned from Arabba (I might have mentioned this before ), and things are dawning on me regarding run grading...
...on Wednesday I skied a blue run mid-afternoon covered in large piles of soft snow, which I found far harder to ski than a black I skied on Friday which was in beautiful condition, wide but bleedin' steep.
...these black runs are nothing to write home about - it's just a way of keeping the riff-raff off.
...sort of arising from the above - run grading is just a measure of the steepness of part of the run, and not much to do with the difficulty of the run, which varies through the day and from day to day according to conditions. |
Absolutely.
The runs are marked according to their relative difficulty in perfect conditions.
The fact that conditions vary so much means that what is an easy run one day can be very much harder the following day, and vice versa. You will also find that when a resort is particularly busy, the reds and blues will be the busiest (unless the resort is knownas a "expert" resort), and then those tend to get cut up and chopppy, while the blacks will retain decent snow for much longer because they aren't used as heavily.
And you also have to remember that there is very little correlation between the levels across different resorts. Every resort will try to have some blacks, even if nothing is really hard enough, and they will always try to have a home run which is marked blue/green, if they have any that are remotely skiable at that level, even though they are often very crowded and rather narrow, making them difficult for beginers.
Beyond that, they will tend to mark pistes to attract the level of slider they want in the resort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Our instructor in La Clusaz the other week swore that the small bumps we were learning on , down the side of a red/blue, were just as hard as any black piste 
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I think the color-grading system works fine as it stands.
It is simple, and reasonably effective. Easy to remember. Universally quick to comprehend.
If one wanted to improve matters, for the sake of it, then trails should have a total-scoring system, to complement the existing visual scheme.
Based on 0 to 100.
0 is horizontal, 100 is vertical.
0 to 24 is green, 25 to 49 is blue, 50 to 74 is red, 75 to 100 is black.
The resort gives marks out of x for each of the many factors affecting the grading of a slope.
For a very simple example (yes, I know there are dozens more factors to consider) -- let's take an imaginary green piste in France.
Average Steepness = 8 / 40
Max. Steepness = 9 / 30
Average Traffic Levels = 3 / 20
Direction of Slope (South) = 3 / 10
Total = 23 / 100
Therefore, this piste marker will state 'Green 23'.
That tells me instantly that it is a green piste of above-average difficulty, with some tricky parts along the way. It is close to a blue, overall.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Whitegold,
Why
is
each
variable
weighted
differently?
The
first
two
are
functions
of
each
other?
What
are
the
other
factors
that
you
would
consider?
Furthermore
who
would
do
the
ratings?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Another factor is whether the direction of the piste matches the fall-line. Green, blue and Red pistes will generally run with the fall-line making it easier for the inexperienced skier to measure their turns against the piste markers. Black runs will often twist across the fall-line making it more confusing for the people who ski by numbers rather than by feel.
Some people are freaked by bumps whereas others are reassured by them and hate steep slopes without them more.
I agree that often a black run is highly preferable because it's less crowded and has been less 'worn out' by heavy traffic.
There's never going to be a perfect system and anyway, the imperfections are there to be exploited too. I know a particular red run that has no nasty surprises on it, is consistently in good condition in the mornings and gets the sun first thing: there's no question that it's far easier to ski than some of the home-run blues are at the end of the day. I have taken a few nervous blue run skiers onto their first red there and boosted their confidence for the rest of the day.
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I agree with the last paragraph wholeheartedly..
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You know it makes sense.
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Its amazing how different the same run can be in diferent conditions even just a day or two appart. Was in Tigne les Brevieres last week and skiid the Sache black on a few occasions. Skiied it intitially just after it opened after a dump of wet snow. It was unpisted cut up porridge and I found it hard tiring work getting down it, took a couple of tumbles (not on any of the really steep bits) not helped by my poor tele skiing. Yet skiied it again a couple of times later and it was entirley different - it had been pisted in places so the snow was well packed and elsewhere it had been well packed by the skiing traffic. It had also frozen hard and the steeps had formed nice bumps. Yet I found it a lot easier to ski than the bottomless porridge
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Whitegold, you left out width, which is a big factor.
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Poster: A snowHead
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width has always been a big factor just ask lady skier
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