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English Skier killed in La Plagne avalanche

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
An English skier, age 47 has been killed in an avalanche in La Plagne, he was off-piste at 2,300m. The avalanche risk was 4 out of 5. This year there have been 11 people killed in France from avalanches. Read report here (in french) http://filinfo.france3.fr/popup_afp.php?nameRegion=raa&id=%20070214092129.v0a4oz2j
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A skier was also killed yesterday in a Tignes avalanche and one in Corbier. More info at PisteHors.com
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Unbelievable that the avalanche warning may have been ignored....it's there for a reason and a 4 is a definite no no.

Sad stuff
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Had the same here in Bansko.... Fresh snow on an icy base layer really does not make for good off-piste conditions. But still non the less people give it a go.

A lucky escape 2 weeks ago when a Greek lady decided she'd like to give off-piste a go, the top layer slid on that icy base layer and took her with it. Escaped with just a broken leg.

Last week however a Russian also decided he would give it a go! Im afraid he wasnt so lucky and lost his life!

Avalanche warnings really are there for a reason. I love off-piste, but this season for me is going to be one where I make the most of on piste.
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Quote:
Unbelievable that the avalanche warning may have been ignored....it's there for a reason and a 4 is a definite no no.


It's not as simple as that. Depending on prevailing weather conditions and development of the snow pack careful route choice may still allow for safe backcountry and off-piste travel even in a category 4 risk - though admittedly off-piste skiers are more likely to want to go where the risk is higher - more/better snow.

However the flipside is also true, a Category 3 risk (many take to be moderate or fairly low) is still a considerable risk - and some locations/aspects will be primed just waiting to slide with the loading a skier or boarder provides. Contary to what some seem to think a category 2 risk doesn't mean there's no risk.

Backcountry snowsports and off-piste shouldn't really be seen as any different from winter mountaineering. Mountain terrain esp in winter carries inherent risks, we only need to look at the tragic toll on CairnGorm Mountain with five fatalities so far this winter from climbing accidents in Coire an t-Sneachda (mostly on low grade climbs that are frequently skied) and/or sucumbing to the weather conditions - Two young men tragically died of exposure less than 10minutes walk (in normal conditions) from the safety of the Daylodge.

Experience can keep you safer, but Experience comes from bad judgement (if you live to tell the tale).
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Winterhighland, unfortunately most of the people who ignore the warnings are either youths doing seasons or one week a year skiers. Neither of them has a clue, let alone any mountaineering experience. I keep telling staff not to do it and they keep ignoring me - I haven't lost any yet, but this is more down to chance than anything else.
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I'm not great at French - does anybody know if they had the correct equpement - transiever, rescue gear etc?
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Winterhighland wrote:
Quote:
Unbelievable that the avalanche warning may have been ignored....it's there for a reason and a 4 is a definite no no.


It's not as simple as that. Depending on prevailing weather conditions and development of the snow pack careful route choice may still allow for safe backcountry and off-piste travel even in a category 4 risk - though admittedly off-piste skiers are more likely to want to go where the risk is higher - more/better snow.

However the flipside is also true, a Category 3 risk (many take to be moderate or fairly low) is still a considerable risk - and some locations/aspects will be primed just waiting to slide with the loading a skier or boarder provides. Contary to what some seem to think a category 2 risk doesn't mean there's no risk.

Backcountry snowsports and off-piste shouldn't really be seen as any different from winter mountaineering. Mountain terrain esp in winter carries inherent risks, we only need to look at the tragic toll on CairnGorm Mountain with five fatalities so far this winter from climbing accidents in Coire an t-Sneachda (mostly on low grade climbs that are frequently skied) and/or sucumbing to the weather conditions - Two young men tragically died of exposure less than 10minutes walk (in normal conditions) from the safety of the Daylodge.

Experience can keep you safer, but Experience comes from bad judgement (if you live to tell the tale).


I know what the warnings mean, I have worked as a ski guide in the alps and it's useful if you understand the scale...if in doubt - stay on-piste - a 4 would give me doubts....as well as a 3...like you say - judgement.

I think you'll find that in resorts such as La Plagne, a 4 or even a 3 generally means forget about off-piste unless you have local knowledge of the areas in question, even then it's not advisable - Saying that, even locals aren't immune...a few ski instructors died in a big slip a couple of seasons back in a well known resort...that's the mountains unfortunately.

Interesting bit of information on Scotland as I have not actually had the experience of ski-ing up there. Must give it a go some day.
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Phatairs, 'Ils ont alors retrouvé la trace informatique du skieur disparu grâce à son forfait main libre.'

I think this means transceiver was found but I think it was detached from the person's body.
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Phatairs, it doesn't say whether he had kit or not but,

"Les secours ont fouillé les endroits hors pistes les plus fréquentés dans un premier temps, sans résultat. Ils ont alors retrouvé la trace informatique du skieur disparu grâce à son forfait main libre. Ils ont fouillé un secteur plus isolé, où le disparu a été retrouvé, la tête coincée sous la neige, mais les pieds sortant de la coulée." means,

Rescuers originally looked in the most popular off piste area without success. They eventually recovered his tracks thanks to the hands free lift ticket (i.e. on and off lifts). They then searched a more isolated area where he was found with his head buried in the snow but his feet sticking out.

So one has to assume he didn't have a beeper.

Peter Ross, more french lessons for you I'm afraid! wink
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David Murdoch, I think I'll give myself an F for my translation!
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Sad news but I'm going to hi-jack this thread slightly..

having done 8 weeks or thereabouts skiing in mainly french resorts (apart from 1x trip to cervinia/zermatt) I guess I've always been conscious of the avalanace risk as its a number on the piste boars (IIRC). about 5 weeks ago I was in St. Anton and despite looking for it, I didn't have a clue what the avalance risk was? I just couln't seem to find any info. They had a yellow flashing light that appeared to be turned on if 4 or 5, but below that nope.

Did I miss something - and yes I can speak a bit of German...
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> Unbelievable that the avalanche warning may have been ignored....4 is a definite no no.

Absolute nonsense !!

I have had plenty of great days off piste when the avy risk is a 4. As winterhighland says - it doesnt mean that all slopes will be dangerous. With careful terrain choice its possible for an experienced group to travel safely even when the avy risk is high.

I think this unfortunate incident sounds very much like someone straying between the marked pistes - and paying the ultimate penalty for a small error of judgement. However people need to realise that there is no such thing as a "little bit off piste". That little strech between 2 blue runs can be just as dangerous as the classic off piste routes. (This especially apply's to uk residents - who often seem unawre of this...?)

Doug.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
> Unbelievable that the avalanche warning may have been ignored....4 is a definite no no.

Absolute nonsense !!

I have had plenty of great days off piste when the avy risk is a 4. As winterhighland says - it doesnt mean that all slopes will be dangerous. With careful terrain choice its possible for an experienced group to travel safely even when the avy risk is high.

I think this unfortunate incident sounds very much like someone straying between the marked pistes - and paying the ultimate penalty for a small error of judgement. However people need to realise that there is no such thing as a "little bit off piste". That little strech between 2 blue runs can be just as dangerous as the classic off piste routes. (This especially apply's to uk residents - who often seem unawre of this...?)

Doug.


So that makes it alright then eh??

Hey, why not just scrap the system altogether because you've had "great days off-piste!"

Probably best to read some of the other posts here before dismissing others opinions....but I guess you don't need to as you know it all!

Absolute nonsense Toofy Grin


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 16-02-07 15:44; edited 1 time in total
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Haggis_Trap, ah Mr Bryce welcome to SnowHeads ! snowHead snowHead
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 brian
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Robbof, no it means pick your terrain. The system is there to help you pick safely, eg. a 20 degree slope with nothing steeper above it is not going to avalanche, is it ?

Haggis_Trap, welcome to snowHead s. Love your website btw.
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brian wrote:
Robbof, no it means pick your terrain.

Exactly. There are no hard and fast rules about the avalanche warning system. It's there to help you make the best decisions you can.
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Yes, I have read the other comments "Robof".... and I still disagre with your opinion that "a 4 or even a 3 generally means forget about off-piste".

However the point of my post was to highlight that there is no such thing as a "little bit off piste".
Just look at the stats on pistehors.com to see how many people are killed each year crossing between the pistes.
People need to be aware that, from the moment you cross the rope, all decisions are you own responsability - especially so in France.

> Hey, why not just scrap the system altogether
You might laugh - but its not a bad suggestion. Avalanche forecasts are always yesterdays information anyway.
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I'm with Haggis Trap on this, you can be in more danger on one slope in a risk "2" than you could be on another slope in a risk "4"......
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kitenski, Absolutely but it sure would help, given that the rating is subjective, to have some more widely available synopsis of the assessment. They dig an avalanch pit and examine layers amongst other methods. There is windslab, powder and thaw enduced slough type avalanche. I personally would like to read this synopsis in detail when making my own judgement for my intended foray. Especially under 3's and 4's.
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"HAGGIS" - I'm not getting into a b1tchfight about this, you guys are obviously experts, unfortunately ski-ing tends to create this attitude in some people....

Did you read this bit? "if in doubt - stay on-piste - a 4 would give me doubts....as well as a 3...like you say - judgement"

I think it means something like, it's down to your personal judgement as you have been made aware of the higher potential risks by the avalanche warning system. Quite interesting that if it means nothing that it's used all over Europe, maybe we should say something!!

I actually crack up when forums go off into the "I know more than you" state, it certainly breeds a healthy discussion - NOT!

Phew, at least everyone will nice be safe on the mountain now that this has been cleared up Very Happy !!!

Have a smashing weekend! wink
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Quote:
kitenski, Absolutely but it sure would help, given that the rating is subjective, to have some more widely available synopsis of the assessment


Interesting point - just what degree of information is usually available say in la plagne as it's the topic of this thread, is it just the avalanche risk category or a more detailed report/forecast?

This is an example of the SAIS reports from today for the Northern Cairngorms:

Quote:
NORTHERN CAIRNGORMS
AVALANCHE HAZARD 1500 HRS FRI 16/2/07
There have been occasional snow showers above 1000 metres on strong South-West winds. The freezing level dropped to just below the summits overnight and rose again slightly during the day. New accumulations of snow are small and lie mainly on North to East aspects above 1000 metres. The old snowpack has become firmer and stable in the cooler temperatures. The avalanche hazard is Low (Category 1).
AVALANCHE HAZARD OUTLOOK SAT 17/2/07
There will be snow showers overnight on moderate South- Westerly winds. During the day it will be dry with moderate winds from the North-West and the freezing level will fall to 900 metres. New accumulations of windslab will develop on Northerly through East to South aspects above 950 metres. The avalanche hazard will be Moderate (Category 2).
CLIMBING CONDITIONS

SNOW DISTRIBUTION: Large firm patches of snow mainly above 900 metres.
ICING: Lower grade gully lines complete, some snow on buttresses, patches of ice around.
COMMENT: Slight improvement in conditions due to last night's cooler temperatures.
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You make a good point Alan, usually it's hard to find that level of detail when in resort. I think I have seen detailed info posted around bottom gondola stations and tourist info centres, but that's only because I've been looking.......
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visionset, I hate to ask the obvious, but what is stopping you digging your own pit?
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Dypcdiver, And digging a new one every time you change orientation on the mountian.
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Dypcdiver wrote:
visionset, I hate to ask the obvious, but what is stopping you digging your own pit?


He would do - but all the shovels are over-priced Laughing
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petemillis, Maybe, but mine has lasted 17 years, not too much to pay for a measure of safety for myself and others.Scarpa, If that is what it takes, yes.
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Scarpa,

Exactly.

I can think of many off piste descents where you can divide the run up into a series of pitches of say six, maybe ten, or even more.

In theory if you believe in snow pits, you should dig one at each of the various stages on the way down. So much can change on the way down - orientation, freezing level currently and when the snow fell, degree of slope, wind effect etc.

Nobody is going to do that.
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richjp, the best example of how useles snow pits are was given by an accident that happened to a swiss army group learning about avalanches. The group dug a profile and did a slab slide test ( i.e dug around a block of snow and one guy jumps on the top of it to see whether it shears ). The slope was deemed to be completely safe. At which point the entire slope avalanched killing two of the group. The only thing left standing was the slab that they had dug out. True story taken from Werner Munther's book about the 3x3 method!
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Mike Lawrie, They can be useful but only as one tool amongst many. There are a lot of hints dotted around the mountain environment, but that is all they are.
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