They want to sell me a pair of 162cm skis!

A snowHead

Last season I hinted at the possibility of purchasing a new set of skis to replace my beloved (but admittedly worn) pair of Rossi Open XP11's from 1986. I have now ventured into the unknown (for me) and have begun some serious enquiries into what is suitable. I have been into several shops and have received some generally good (if somewhat generic and obvious) advice.

Now, my attention has been drawn to a pair of Atomic Metron B5 skis with Neox 412 bindings (who on earth dreams up these names?). Admittedly, these skis were on show at Snow and Rock (a store I would normally think twice about going into) and it was suggested, given my experience (perhaps not skill), that a pair of these in a 162cm model would be appropriate. Immediately I gave away my 'Old School' credentials when my jaw dropped in horror and I protested that this was way too short given that I skied a 195cm model! However, like everyone else, I was basically told to join the 'carving revolution' (oh dear, more New Labour style mantra which has infected our sport) and that my skiing would be 'transformed' (let's face it, he's keen to sell me a pair of £600 skis).

Last season, I did try a pair of 'Bandit' skis for a day and was generally impressed by their stability and carving power but, from memory, this model was a lot longer. So, I am tempted, but given that my knowledge of skiing equipment stops at 1990, what advice would you lot give to a cynical old hacker who doesn't smoke spliffs on the slopes, has no goatee beard and refrains from the tempation to use terms like 'sick', 'rad' and other such bourgeois middle class profanities.

Ta very much!

ps, why do skiing staff insist on wearing woolly hats and sunglasses in a heated and well lit shop?

A snowHead

kevin, I still limousine around on 203s quite a lot of the time, and mess around on carvers the rest of the time. Each are fun. I've no doubt that long planks will continue to go in and out of fashion, just as long skateboards have a market too. Snowblades / skiboards / figls are excellent fun, too.

It's purely personal taste. If they're running it again, the Fall Line ski test in spring offers a chance to try a huge variety of different skis and bindings. Thoroughly recommended. It's been in Zermatt in April, after the Easter rush, which couldn't be better.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Kevin, depends on height and wieght.

I'm 5'9" and weigh 11.5 stone. I ride 165 Pocket Rockets, but have been told I shoul dbe on 175s

brian

Kevin, I had similar qualms when I retired my trusty old Voelkl 205cm planks and bought a pair of 181cm K2 Axis-x.

It does take a day or so to get the different feel, they're so keen to turn you need to calm the eager wee souls down a bit. Then you'll unleash you and them on the mountain. The spaniel's danglers !

Feel the flow and they'll flood your brain Cool

You'll need to Register first of course.

Unless you've been living in a bucket for the last few years you're quite aware the length of skis around but don't let me stop you...

However, 600 quid for those skis is too much, they should be around 500 quid, these guys sell direct and via Ebay, postage is quite reasonable and you'll get the same set for 729 euro, they'll be other places with the same price or you might persuade S+R to match it. If you're not trying the skis before buying then the Internet's fine to buy from.

I’d want to try Metrons before buying them personally, they’re a new style of skis and not directly comparable with older Atomic models. They’re wide for flotation, I presume Atomic thought they were losing sales to the 5 foot flip-flops that Salomon seem to be selling so well.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

kevin mcclean, it would depend on how you like to ski, over the years I dropped from a Rossi DV6s in 203cm (early 1990's) to a Head Cyber 28X at arround 188cm (1999-2000) to a just purchased Head GS w/c race rd in 180cm

But I'm very heavy so need a performance ski, plus I'm old school so like a ski that will run fast and straight, if you like to do lots of tight turns look for a ski ith a tight turn radius if you prefer long wide turns go for one with a bigger radius

Speed is proportional to ski length so faster = longer however if you are happy with the way you ski on your current XP11's I would be tempted to only go down by a maximum of 20cm to arround 175cm dropping to a 162cm model may be a long way to go in a single step, much better to get to the resort and hire several test skis to see what you prefer

After all it is free

I agree with ise, those skis are too much, my new Heads came in at just over £500 and they are factory set up race skis

Kevin, I also used to ski on over 2 metre planks but unlike Mr Goldsmith, there is no way I'd go back to long straight skis. I now ski on on anything from 155cms up to 184 cms, depending on their function. My daughter lets me borrow her full-on ultra stiff slalom skis (155s) or I can use my big fats (184s) on powder days, so any ski around 164-168 cms is right in the middle of of my size range. I'm lucky in that we have a range of skis in our chalet for our guest to use and the vast majority are 168 cms and are all-mountain skis. We've found these to be the most versatile and acceptable for guests with a wide range of skiing abilities. Although I do agree with ise, £600 is way too much for a pair of skis.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

David@traxvax, I think it's time you went down the Flying Kilometre at Les Arcs on 240s.

I don't speak from experience.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

David, I'm up for it if you are, do you think we could include the Masque in our plans?

snow reports

I used to ski on a pair of 195 planks and thought all this short ski/carving revolution stuff was just marketing babble. Curiosity got the better of me so I hired a pair of 'carving skis' a few years ago and (when I used them properly) it was a complete revelation. Since then I've abandoned the planks and now choose from a pair of Head WC Slalom (155cm), Salomon 1080s (161) or Rossignol 9X (177) depending on snow conditions and how energetic I'm feeling on the day. The Head slalom skis are brilliant fun on piste unless I want to do very high speed long radius turns, in which case I use the Rossignols. If I was looking for one pair of skis rather than three different pairs I'd be looking for something in the 165cm range, which was OK to take off-piste. Much like the Metrons in fact...

Regards

Rob

Could the NHS or French equivalent cope with that sort of burden though? Laughing

You know it makes sense.

Mark. I'm not sure, The French have been trying to close the Hospital in BSM for some time. The arrival of Masque , hors d'combat, could push it over the edge.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

KM, Given your previous long term commitment to your skis the best solution for you is to hire top end skis in resort. Try out all sorts of skis during your holiday - You can try a new pair or two every day if you want. If at the end of the week you decide to buy the hire cost will be deducted from the purchase price.
All hire shops in "Homogenised cash cow ski resorts" will be up for this so you'll have no prob's in Val D.

I too was on 195cm for many years but now I ski on anything from 100cm blades to 185 GS skis. I like "flip flops" a lot for general bimbling around and playing on contours and jumps (wee ones).

IMHO there are too many good skis out there to limit yourself to one set for a week let alone a number of years.

A snowHead

Excuse my ignorance, but what, in this instance, are "flip-flops"?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thank you everyone for your sage comment and advice, however I've just reached a higher state of confusion! These Metron Skis appear somewhat interesting as they have a very wide platform which would allude to off piste capability and yet they are marketed as 'piste prestige'.

The side cut is quite pronounced and I'm assured they're as stable as Blair's government. Of course, £600 smackers is way too much so thanks for the info there. If buy a new pair of skis, I at least expect 10 seasons out of them at 2 weeks per season, minimum.

Interesting points Boardski-there's simply so much choice out there.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Kevin it really depends on your hieght and wieght i had always used planks over 2 metres last season i was on 178's and this year i've got a set of 183's. As stated above takes a day or 2 to get used to them but after that i really started to enjoy them and couldnt imagine going back the best bet would be to either test them in resort or if you can get to a snowdome before you buy. I've gone from slalom ski's to all mountain ski's now because i want to do everything and go everywhere on the mountain with them including groomed runs and they seem to do all that well.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

ise, could you explain a little more? Are these factors more relevant than a ski's characterisitics (eg short and stiff for slalom, long and wide for off-piste, etc?

Regards

Rob

Weight has more relevance than height, a heavy person will alter the ski's characteristics far more than a lighter person. For heavy guys we put them on Dynastar Ski Crosses, much stiffer than Intuitivs of the same length.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I'll decline lengthy explanations, I ought to keep a pretence of doing some work this afternoon Very Happy

Besides, they'll be an American along and they do that kind of thing at great length.

But, you've hit the nail on the head with the point about the ski characteristics, with the longer and straighter skis the generalised height/weight map to ski length was reasonably accurate but now there's so much more to consider. Personally, I ski some supersports at 168cm, Atomic Ride11.22’s at 180 and Zags at 180.I’m about 183 and somewhere around 85-90kg and about 800 on the Snow and Rock ability scale. For the zags and Rides I need a reasonable length to get any flotation at all and with the supersports I want the agility a shorter ski gives me. The different lengths reflect the ski what I use them for since my height remains constant.

With the way skis have diverged it’s my opinion that the ski characteristic is way more important than the height.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

Height does matter. Here's how.

Imagine a 50ft vertical pole attached to a ski. You'd only have to push the top of it with your little finger to greatly affect the fore / aft weight distribution over the ski. Now imagine another pole 3 inches high attached to the same ski. You'd have to apply all your strength to make much difference to the weight distribution. Granted, skiing's about much more than fore / afte weight distribution. But it's one factor, and it's why short people struggle to control long skis and why tall people find short skis less stable.

I think... Confused

kevin mcclean, The Rossignol Open (all 3 models) were one of the worst skis ever made in terms of what they do for the skier. The length and whatever doesn't matter - get rid of them! Anything would be better.
It is a shock to go to such short skis after the old school skis, but it's fantastic. snowHead

What a difference, easy, rewarding and so much FUN. snowHead

You know it makes sense.

Jonny Jones, I understand the principle of levers, I just think that this kind of analysis significantly overstates the effect of a skier's height. A much more significant factor is what you want the ski to do. Choosing a ski based on how tall you are could easily lead you to buying the wrong type of ski.

Regards

Rob

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

easiski, it certainly was a shock for me when I tried new shape skis! I couldn't believe how much more responsive they were when I carved a proper turn (rather than all the scraping around the mountain I was used to!). I love my Head slalom skis now (155cm long) and it makes me smile when I'm in the cable car and see all the old, straight skis towering above skier's heads. My slalom skis only just reach my chin, but they are the best things I've ever skied on piste with. A reassurance to Kevin - my skiing has been transformed by these new shape skis (well, that and the £££s spent on ski lessons so that I know how to use them properly).

Regards

ROb

A snowHead

Jonny JonesHeight matters but it's not the only or the most important factor. That example's great but in real life height only varies by, what, 10 or 20% for most of the population? We need someone with a better ability to talk about mechanics, fulcrums, levers, pivots and the like.

But, part of the problem is how hard it is to turn the ski , that's not purely a factor of height or ski length, if the ski had a steel core (as it seems the Dynastar race skis have) it's pretty hard to flex at long lengths and hence turn, peversely something too soft with a cardboard core (the same "composite" used as the flip-flop core I understand) is so hard to steer you need to ski at about 1m length to be able to turn it all.

A snowHead

ise, You're right, but a major factor of which ski to buy is how much pressure you can put onto/through it. It's one of the reasons for the old "longer is cool" business. If you skied really long skis you were making a statement that you could pressure the ski sufficiently to turn it - the longer and stiffer the harder they were to turn. I once had a pair of ex-factory Olin slaloms at about 203 which were lovely, but they were old by the time they passed to me. Ditto the original VR27 slalom ski - surely the best of it's generation, but if you didn't initiate the turn correctly they didn't turn at all! (I once went straight for a pylon on them).

The new skis are also made up of much more exotic and responsive materials, so can maintain tortional rigidity while being longditudinally flexible. This allows them to support more weight. To my mind this is the biggest advance - it's not just the shape. Of course within these parameters you get a lot of variation, and as has already been mentioned you really need to try before you buy. Try lots of skis, work out which TYPE of ski suits you best and then go for a deal. The make doesn't matter very much, even though many professionals will tell you otherwise - they're probably just keeping in with their sponsors.

To get back to rob@rar.org.uk, point, many of my clients have experienced a huge surge in their learning curve when switching to a true carving ski - not only in technique but also in confidence. Learning to let the ski do it isn't as easy as it sounds for many people, but what a wonderful release when you do.

Personally, I feel as though they're the skis I've been waiting for all my life. I'm 165cms around 9st and ski 160ish slaloms and a bit longer for off piste (Scratch FSs). I used to ski 2m all the time - I can't even imagine it now! My rule of thumb for length is: small children - chest height; beginners - chin height; 3-8 weeks - eye height; after 8 weeks whatever turns you on!
Wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, you imply one of rob@rar.org.uk's points: anyone with strong old ski skills really needs lessons on the new ones.

I've been itching to start a hare for a long time now, inspired by such things as the 198cm Rossi 9s thread:

Should old-time slalom ski skiers look for skiddable current GS-sidecut skis as best suited to their existing skills?

Or should they just bite the bullet, buy modern slalom skis or carvers and learn to carve with however many lessons it takes?

I ask this mostly because very few seem to value good controlled skidding behaviour in a ski, and shop sales rats have a noticeable tendency not to even think of question 1.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

kevin mcclean, i woud'n buy those skis without skiing them first, no matter their lenght. These are completedly new skis that are supposed to be the "best of all the worlds" wide for float, short for quick reaction (you heard this sales speech). I am not convinced at all that these skis are worth the money (or that they work well). BTW 162 is what Atomic would recomend for a skier like yourself.
If you ski only on the marked runs, i would recomend you try some Volkl 4 or 5 stars, Head cyber 160 or similar/ length? i'd stay under 170 (168 for the volkls)
If you plan on going offpiste a bit, the Dynastar Legend 4800 (or the intuitiv 74 it replaces) in a 172 lenght should be great (the Rossi Bandit should do fine as well)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

comprex, to answer your question I would say bite the bullet with modern carving skis and change your style to get the best out of that investment in new technology. When skiing on piste with modern skis the difference in control, response and plain old fun is marked if you use the skis the way they were designed to be used. The 'Grin Factor' is very high and changing skis/technique has renewed my passion for skiing after too many years of skidding around on the intermediate plateau. And that's from a guy who doesn't have a goatee, has never smoked a spliff on the slopes and only uses the word 'sick' when I'm ill!

Regards

Rob

You'll need to Register first of course.

easiski, yes, sorry, much better put, the shock of just having opened a corked bottle of wine but me off my stride there Very Happy

kevin mcclean, you're going to Val, go into Precision they do a great range of skis and you can try loads of types, several pairs a day if you want. It's really interestig, well worth trying stuff you'd be unlikely to buy just for the experience.OTOH, if you used the bandits and liked them then buy some.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rob@rar.org.uk, you don't like to be eased into anything?

One facet of the debate might be whether carvers or slalom skis actually make carving easier to learn. Another might be the instinctive use of ingrained skills and motion patterns in difficult terrain. I really don't see how a modern carver or modern slalom ski is going to help a skier with long-established skills in icy bumps, where a detuned modern GS just might.

I absolutely hated every new ski given to me until I found one that I could trust on non-trivial terrain while I was changing my skill set. Then I was happy, and then everything changed readily and happily. snowHead

As it happened, it was a detuned GS (Voelkl p30).

P.S. by "modern" I mean anything since 2000, i.e. not including the first generation "parabolic" and similar symmetrical shapes.

After all it is free

comprex, the confidence I got from the stability and responsiveness of using carving skis on piste has improved my confidence in other aspects of skiing including 'non-trivial terrain' (nice phrase, I think I'll use that in the future!). That's not to say that I carve turns down bump fields or icy blacks, but I think the step change in my performance on piste has given me the confidence to be more adventurous in other contexts.

For me slalom skis did make it much easier to learn carving. I'd spent 15 years not really understanding what a carved turn was (or felt like), then I found myself on the new shape skis and it started to make sense. I remember very clearly the first day I tried a pair (rented from Precision in Val D) that I had to focus on coming out of the turn early otherwise I was going be be facing up the slope due to the tight turns that the skis could generate. It was a real eye opener for me. Since then I've returned to ski school and worked hard on my technique to develop carving skills (and try to get rid of the many bad habits - which had become ingrained skills - I'd built up over the years!).

Regards

Rob

kevin mcclean, like so many others, I went from huge straight skis to carvers, but with a very lengthy gap. I hadn't been on skis for 15 years - I had progressed from 210's at the tender age of 14 to 185's. I tried these gimmicky new-fangled carver jobs with much trepidation and found that 15 years of inaction was completely wiped out by them. They seemed to do everything themselves. The adjustment was helped by a few sessions on snowblades - I found carvers much easier after this. I hope you're in for a thrill.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Ise; interesting point about Precsion Ski in VD. I might have to go there and find out for myself. I assume French is the second language in the Haute Tarentaise these days so there wont be any communication problems!

Help!!

They want to sell me a pair of 162cm skis!

snowHeads Forum Index >>> The Piste