 Poster: A snowHead
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Is there a list somewhere? or can we start to compile one for people who may wish to work as Stagieres in France
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ICE in Val d'Isere (an off-shoot of Mountain Masters)
NewGen in Courchevel
BASS in Morzine (I think)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On reflection, what do you mean by accredited training centre? Do you mean licensed by BASI to run BASI courses, or allowed to use Stagieres? If it's the latter I think that the school needs to be above a certain size and a registered ski school in order to use stagieres (but might be wrong on this).
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If it's stagieres then;
Supreme/Magic in Motion in 3V's is the only one i know.
I don't think ICE & BASS have the necessary licence.
What's wrong with working for a French Ski School ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, Not BASI training centres but allowed to use stagieres, ie if you are a basi 2 you can work (and get paid) while training for further qualification. There may be another term for this type of school but im not sure.
stewart woodward, thanks, that is two so far... sorry, nothing wrong with french ski schools as long as they hire non french trainees with crap French language skills... 
i am just trying to get a feel if it is worth even attempting to learn to be an instructor in france, as unless you can get an ISTD you cant do it for a living.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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after looking at a few other posts "Centre de Formation" is the term i think i am looking for
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skimottaret, I think Google language tools and the translate this page button maybe your friend here 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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boredsurfin, even cheatin i havent worked it out....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| I don't think ICE & BASS have the necessary licence. |
I can confirm that BASS don't have the necessary licence. In order to have a licence, you have to have a certain number of French qualified instructors. Equivalence doesn't count.
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| What's wrong with working for a French Ski School ? |
There's absolutely nothing wrong with working for a French Ski School stewart woodward - and I know several BASI qualified instructors who do.
But, equally, what's wrong with the French fully recognising equivalence? The British are, apparently, (only just) good enough to teach, but not good enough to train new instructors.
BASS in Morzine have four BASI Trainers and have a huge focus on professional development - but still can't employ Stagieres. Frankly, it's not right.
(But, I am of course, biased as I'm training with BASS in Morzine.)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, stewart woodward, thanks for all the ideas, i am perhaps getting ahead of myself as i am only just embarking on all the training but there seems to me a lot of confusion about the realities of working as a trainee (stagiere) as opposed to the letter of the law, hence starting the post.....
Myself, i am under no allusion that i will ever qualify as an ISTD or pass the Eurotest but I have enjoyed the teaching i have done so far and if all i could aspire to was an ISIA and teaching beginners/ intermediates that would do me.... Unfortunately for me i purchased a property in France instead of Andorra, Switzerland etc that would allow me to do that into retirement....
PhillipStanton, interesting to hear that only French qualified instructors count, i was wondering why New Gen / Bass or the larger international schools that offer instructor training didnt qualify as "centre de formation". i just assumed the French red tape wasn't worth their while to employ just a handful of stagieres and that it was an underhanded way for the ESF to retain some control of introduction of new instructors.
Not to bash the ESF union but to me this is the real way they block "outsiders" from entering the market. It is a shame that one can't work through the system with the school that offers instructor training courses using qualifed instructor trainers. There are going to be a lot of gap year kids that qualify as Grade 3's and then have to move to other countries to continue their training. maybe this isnt such a bad thing but you would think it would be a good idea to develop an understanding of the local areas, people and employers whilst working "your way up the ladder...."
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| skimottaret wrote: |
easiski, stewart woodward, thanks for all the ideas, i am perhaps getting ahead of myself as i am only just embarking on all the training but there seems to me a lot of confusion about the realities of working as a trainee (stagiere) as opposed to the letter of the law, hence starting the post.....
Myself, i am under no allusion that i will ever qualify as an ISTD or pass the Eurotest but I have enjoyed the teaching i have done so far and if all i could aspire to was an ISIA and teaching beginners/ intermediates that would do me.... Unfortunately for me i purchased a property in France instead of Andorra, Switzerland etc that would allow me to do that into retirement....
PhillipStanton, interesting to hear that only French qualified instructors count, i was wondering why New Gen / Bass or the larger international schools that offer instructor training didnt qualify as "centre de formation". i just assumed the French red tape wasn't worth their while to employ just a handful of stagieres and that it was an underhanded way for the ESF to retain some control of introduction of new instructors.
Not to bash the ESF union but to me this is the real way they block "outsiders" from entering the market. It is a shame that one can't work through the system with the school that offers instructor training courses using qualifed instructor trainers. There are going to be a lot of gap year kids that qualify as Grade 3's and then have to move to other countries to continue their training. maybe this isnt such a bad thing but you would think it would be a good idea to develop an understanding of the local areas, people and employers whilst working "your way up the ladder...." |
I just thought that I would add a little information to this conversation despite the fact that it went on nearly 5 years ago.
A Centre de Formation is a Training Centre, this is where young school and univeristy leavers that are hoping to become ski instructors would go and do their training for the Test Technique and then eventually the Eurotest.
A stagiere is a student instructor. French or Foreginer alike, this is someone who has passed the minimal level of requirements to work in a Registered Ski School in France as a STAGIERE (as a French National you would require the Test Technique and the Preformation).
All registered ski schools in France (ESI / ESF / Independent) are allowed to apply for an "Aggreement" from the department of sport that allows them to employ Stagieres. There are certain rules that have been set up to control this so that schools are not only employing trainee instructors. The rules are pretty simple, for example the school must have a minimum of 10-12 fully qualified national instructors or equivalent.
This has nothing to do with being BRITISH, it is the same for everyone......................................
Centres de Formation or Training Centres are sometime based in ski schools but the best ones and the oldest ones are normally seperate organisations or federations that have been specifically designed for the purpose of training wannabee instructors. Training centres whether they are in a ski school or not, do not reserve you, the trainee, the right to teach skiing. You have to pass the necessary exams. For those of you who are wondering why it so hard to teach in France, then stop wondering and get out there and do some training. The French guys and girls have to take all these exams aswell and more than 85% of them will never make it past the first hurdle. The ones that do get past the test technique still have a long way to go and the majority of them fail as well. I have seen and lived the anxiety first hand and I have watched my French friends in tears of joy and dismay. It is equally as hard for them as it is for anyone else in the world and the answer is simple. If you do the training and you have the ability and you merit the position then you will be able to teach and work in France just like everyone else. If you would like to know more and learn more about this then get in touch. NOTHING IN LIFE IS EASY SO START TRAINING!!!!!!!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Delachamp, welcome to snowheads and thanks for the info. One little point is that a school must have 10 or FRENCH Qualified National ski teachers. British ISTD's with full equivalence dont count so in effect even larger British schools with dozens of full certs cannot apply for Training Centre status.
wholly unfair but what do you do ...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Has to be said that I found the French to be very friendly mainly when training with them before a eurotest attempt years ago. They understood that we were having to go through the same stuff as them so fully accepted us into the crew whilst training. We then went for a good meal after the test which was included in the cost of the training, which was a nice touch.
However one time when I was inspecting a fleche course me and a mate got skied up to by a couple of ESF instructors with groups of kids and got questioned rather intimidatingly about who we would work for if we got fully qualified. I told my one that I'd happily work for the ESF (which I would of) which seemed to throw him a bit! 
Interestingly from what I could gather most of them thought the level was set too high. And this was from 20 something year olds and youngers who were born in ski resorts in many cases to families who's business was ski teaching and had been through generations.
Being as most ski schools, particularly in France are pyramid schemes it would be interesting to see how many French get through the process each year as if the flow of newly qualifieds dry up then there is less money for the guys that have been in for 20-30 years. Although of course they still make money out of the trainees I suppose.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skir67, here are some facts
BASI had 62 passes in the three seasons 2008/9 to 2010/11 (plus a few exemptions I would guess)
total numbers of passes is roughly 200 in the 12 years the ET has been running..
In France 2000-2011, a total of 5,464 candidates have passed the test (including all nationalities who attended)
So the Pyramid scheme is a live and kicking, I always chuckle a bit when I hear Brit full certs complain that there isn't enough work for them in France when we are producing 20 ISTD's a year and there are Millions of Brit holiday skiers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
skir67, here are some facts
BASI had 62 passes in the three seasons 2008/9 to 2010/11 (plus a few exemptions I would guess)
total numbers of passes is roughly 200 in the 12 years the ET has been running..
In France 2000-2011, a total of 5,464 candidates have passed the test (including all nationalities who attended)
So the Pyramid scheme is a live and kicking, I always chuckle a bit when I hear Brit full certs complain that there isn't enough work for them in France when we are producing 20 ISTD's a year and there are Millions of Brit holiday skiers. |
I'm surprised at 62, the available training must be working. Over 5000 also surprises me, particularly as the one I went to only 1 bloke out of about 80 passed. So looks like they'll be no pressure to change anything anytime soon from the people at the top of the pyramids.
I think that it used to be reckoned that about 55% of all brit skiers holiday in France on a regular basis, so it's pretty obvious where the work is.
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| Quote: |
So looks like they'll be no pressure to change anything anytime soon from the people at the top of the pyramids.
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That sums it up well Look at who runs BASI , they are pretty much all at the top point of the Pyramid
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I always chuckle a bit when I hear Brit full certs complain that there isn't enough work for them in France
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Do you really here this? I know ski schools that are desperate to recruit ISTDs, but there aren't enough of them.
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beanie1, yup all the time, I can think of a few young guys who decided to go independent, set up a website with a couple mates and then are surprised when they arent full up all season..
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skimottaret, that could be more due to lack of marketing skills to promote their company, than lack of work for ISTDs. The ESF for example wants to employ one in every ski school - but there aren't enough.
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for sure but a lot of the young guns think blast the Eurotest join the elite club and assume the world will beat a path to your door like it used to be... The same guys are the ones who think the Eurotest should stay as is and once you get on top of the pyramid your sorted and on 50 Euro an hour.... That ESF quote is always good for a laugh. If you did your time, got your ISTD why on earth would you want to work for the ESF when you could be an independent or work for any number of brit ski schools? The ESF trot it out to show that they aren't really the bad Union officials whose mission is to protect their members jobs at all costs and BASI like it to show what a wonderful relationship wie have with the French trade union and what a great job we did 12 years ago getting our full certs right of establishment. I think it is great PR for them that they made such an offer knowing full well that virtually no one will take it up. How many of the 350 or so Brit ISTD's took them up on their offer and gone to work full time for an ESF school ? I can think of 1 guy (who quit) but there may be 3 or 4 ... There might even be a few 10's of BASI L2 and L3's working as stagierres, will they go to work full time for the ESF once they become ski instructors and get their ISTD? Doubt it...
But back to the OP what is BASI's stance on British training centres within the EU ?
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