 Poster: A snowHead
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I have just completed a week skiing on a new pair of Salomon X-Wing Tornado skis and I'm really pleased with them.
But there seems to be a problem with the bindings, as follows:
First thing in the morning, the bindings fit my boots perfectly - when putting them on, the boot heel is a snug fit in the rear binding "cup".
After skiing for an hour or so and removing the skis (e.g. for a gondola trip), when I put them on again I find that there is now a gap of several millimetres between my boot heel and the rear binding. This gets worse during the day until the gap is greater than 1cm.
After the skis have "rested" at normal room temperatures at the end of the day, the binding fit returns to normal.
When I first noticed this, I took the skis to a service shop in resort at the end of the day and they moved the front bindings back to fit the boots (the new Salomon bindings on the SmartTrak interface are adjustable like rental bindings). But, guess what? - the next day I could not get the skis on because the bindings were too tight!
I have checked the binding fit according to the Salomon 06/07 Shop Practices Manual and everything seems OK when the skis are at room temperature.
I am obviously going to follow this up with Lockwoods (where I bought the skis) but can anyone shed any light on this strange happening  .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nope. I have never had that happen to me with any make of binding - and I wold be alarmed if it did. A gap greater than 1cm? I can't imagine how you skied. I'd certainly go back to Lockwoods with skis and boots.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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johnw, is there any chance that there was compressed snow on the bottom of your boots or jamming up the binding. This is the main cause of a binding failing to engage properly in my experience. Clearing the snow, especially if it's sticky isn't always very easy. The fact that it happens when you've taken the skis off and put them back on again makes me wonder whether this is the cause?
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Does sound like compressed snow under the boot, but then surely the service shop in resort would have noticed that? Wonder how much change there is in the camber of the ski between "normal room temperature" and cold outside temperature? Could it be the ski bending that's doing this - if bindings set when the ski is too cold, then as the ski camber starts to reverse a bit when the ski warms up then the distance between toe and heel piece decreases, and vicky verky.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kramer, I'm fairly sure that snow on the boots isn't the problem - the bindings do "click on" positively and don't pre-release while skiing. The gap is only evident when placing the boot in the binding prior to engaging it. It may be that snow gets into the binding - there is certainly snow in the gaps between the interface and the ski but, if this is the problem, it points to a serious design fault which is why I ask if it's happened to anyone else.
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petemillis, I thought of that too but the problem occurs at zero camber (i.e. when pressing the boot into the ski).
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johnw, ....... have your boots any unusual characteristics ..... ?
What size are they ?
Although unlikely, would the boots have that much expansion / contraction ...... ?
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johnw, it really does sound like build up of compressed snow on the boot sole to me. Bindings are designed with some play in them, in order that they can hold your boot under tension, this means that it is still possible for them to be positively engaged despite having compressed snow between the boot and the bindings, and so there being an increase in the gap between them. It happens on my front bindings on my Salomon 912 bindings, also on my Rossi Axials as well. It's only really a design fault in that it's common to all bindings that they don't engage properly unless you totally clear your boots of compressed snow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Looking at this again, I agree that the compressed snow theory is the most likely answer. It is almost inconceivable that temperature could account for a gap variation of over 1cm.
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BernardC, my boots are Salomon X-Wave 8, about 4 years old. I wouldn't have thought that they would expand/contract that much. Besides, I didn't have the problem with my old skis (CrossMax 8 Pilots).
Kramer, i wish it were that easy but the boots were "clean" when the ski-tech in resort checked the fit. The gap appears after inserting the boot in the front binding and before closing the rear binding. If there were compressed snow under the front of the boot, surely it would prevent proper insertion in the front binding which would tend to lessen any clearance between the heel of the boot and the rear binding. Any compressed snow under the rear of the boot would not effect the horizontal position between the boot heel and the rear binding.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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johnw, in that case I have no idea. Good luck. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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johnw, I know almost nothing about bindings or boots, but I don't believe that size change with temp could account for what you describe. There are things which contract that much when cold, but I assume that you keep them well tucked away.
It might be that the bindings aren't closing properly, but even if you hadn't noticed that, the ski shop surely should have done. Compressed snow might prevent complete closure. Does this problem occur even if you don't take the skis off? If it only happens when you put them back on after eg a gondola ride (as I think you say), failure to close properly sounds a distinct possibility.
Could it be that something resilient in the toe unit of the bindings is being compressed (forwards) as you ski and is sticking in the forward position, so that the boots don't return to their proper position? In that case, leaving the bindings open overnight might allow the compressed bit to return to its proper position, so that all is well in the morning. I don't know enough about bindings to know whether this is a possibility, and 1 cm sounds a lot (especially as I understand the point of bindings to be to hold the boot immobile relative to the ski until they release). Presumably the boot is square on the ski all the time; it's not that the boot is being held in a skewed position? Again, I'm sure that you and the shop would have spotted it!
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richmond, I'm pretty sure that the bindings are closing properly and, as you point out, the only bits likely to be that affected by cold are kept well tucked away  .
Your theory about the front binding sounds plausible, particularly as the front binding adjustment is supposed to be fully automatic, thereby raising the possibility of it adjusting itself!
The point about the boot being skewed is a worry. When the gap is there, I have to try and make sure that the boot heel is centered in the rear binding before clipping in.
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You know it makes sense.
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johnw, if the boot becomes slightly out of line without the bindings opening (which I assume shouldn't happen), there would be a gap between the boot and the back or front of the binding. Hard to imagine that giving a 1cm gap without the boot coming out and without you or the ski shop noticing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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richmond, when the boots are clipped in, everything appears to be fine. The gap only appears when the boot is inserted in the binding before clipping in.
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK, I'd misunderstood. In that case, I'm not sure that there's a problem. I seem to remember a gap of that sort of size when clipping boots into bindings. It makes the suggestion that something is being compressed and not recovering more plausible; when there is no gap, whatever it is may need to be compressed to enable the boot to travel into its final position and be clipped in.
What we need is someone who knows something about how bindings are constructed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Z12s?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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comprex, As in the Fisher Price Z12s? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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comprex, yes, Z12s on Smartrak Prolink interface.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've talked to the technician at Lockwoods and he suggests the following cause for the problem:
The rear binding actually slides under the control of a spring to provide the forward pressure on boot insertion and, thereafter, as the ski flexes. In particular, the binding moves backwards several mm. when the boot is clipped in, returning to its original position when the boot is unclipped. It is presumably possible that ice forming in the slide mechanism could "freeze" the binding in the rearwards position.
He has never heard of this happening before but then I believe that the Z12 bindings are fairly new. He is going to check it out with Salomon.
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johnw, Maybe there's a lack of grease on the sliding mech then. Grease should stop water getting between the moving parts of the slid mech and freezing. Could this be something that was overlooked when the bindings were set up?
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petemillis, possibly, I shall be taking the skis back to Lockwoods in a couple of weeks time for them to check them out. I'll post the results/conclusions on this thread.
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