 Poster: A snowHead
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| I've seen it happen with a very charming but not very sporting German chap who happened to share our group on a week's powder skiing in Canada. On day 1 we were all quite happy for the rest that waiting for him gave us but he was clearly struggling - both with the snow and his fitness |
I think fitness is a significant issue for off-piste skiing. I too was in a group for a week where a 40-something, slightly overweight guy (other than me) was quite possibly the best technical on-piste skier, but struggled badly on off-piste days due to insufficient fitness to cope with the higher work rate. Even getting up became problematic for him after the inevitable falls, which became more frequent as he tired.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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laundryman, I'm an OK off-piste skier but there is no way I'd be able to go on a group holiday for a week. 2 hours of off-piste is my limit in a day, after which the pistes are a welcoming relief.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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laundryman, for sure. However, the uber-fat skis he ended up on meant he was almost effectively skiing on piste - so much float he hardly got into the powder at all. Worked for him, worked for us.
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skimottaret, Hmmm. I don't know a whole lot of rich skiing chums? Just one or two (although it depends on what scale you term "rich"!)
It's a thorny issue. I guess I probably have my attitude cos my first ski boots had laces and I had cable bindings on wooden skis. I loved them none the less.
I am not quite sure I agree with making sports too easy. One - I get a lot of pleasure out of doing something well that isn't easy. If it was easy they'd call it snowboarding, right? (Ducks and does a Dr Who sofa move).
2 - What's the pleasure in off piste? For me - technical challenge, the joy of floating through (NB not on top of) powder, solitude - amongst others. Give everyone superfat skis and all of that evaporates. There's no technical challenge and if your skis simply float on top you might as well be on piste anyway.
While it's great that "modern" skis IMHO have made the early learning curve easier, and allowed people to get properly into skiing faster, it's just moved the "plateau" up the curve. It hasn't actually made the whole sport any easier to get good at (again, IMHO). What is worrying is that it HAS made "off piste" skiing massively easier and I suspect that many people are heading off into the fluffy stuff without any of the even half baked advice, warnings, experience that prior generations accreted.
Honest, I'm not trying to stop people enjoying a sport. But, I do think I'm allowed to have my curmudgeonly biases?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, As far as my knowledge goes throwing money at an avalanche doesn't slow it down, let alone stop it.
Yoda, I see you had the pocket guide with you.
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I'm not sure that fat skis make the off piste exactly the same as on piste.
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Kramer, in my example, that was the observed effect...
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Hmm ... my plans to try a bit of off piste-ing, are starting to sound like a very good way of spending/wasting yet more money on new ski equipment .... 
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jonflat2, my forays have been on slalom skis: I don't think it's necessary to shell out (don't tell SMALLZOOKEEPER!!).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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David Murdoch, I agree with your sentiments about fat skis. Some people seem to think you can't even go off-piste with anything less than 90 mm wide 
But of course it just isn't true. It's all just personal preference and what you're capable of. I learned to ski powder on long narrow skis many years ago, but I did find it very hard going at the time. I wouldn't want to go back to that extreme now. But I find most modern shaped skis over 70 mm wide are fine in most off-piste conditions. I'm sure it would be even easier on a fatter ski, but it doesn't really bother me. As you mentioned earlier, too much float might even make it less fun. What's the point of skiing in waist deep powder if you only sink a few inches into it?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I was very disappointed at last years EOSB that when trying out a pair of 89 wide skis, I didnt get anything more than out of my 78s! Gutted really - I expected to float over everything!  There is a significant difference in the 65 wide slaloms and the 78 wide all mountains when skiing difficult snow, but it doesn't stop me skiing (and evm giving lessons) off piste on the Fischers. Harder work for sure. Nowt wrong with that.
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Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I can't be bothered to read the rest of this thread. Anyway, it's much easier to ski off piste in the States and Canada because, in general, the snow is a lot drier and non-sticky.
I love fat skis - except they're a pain when you get them stuck in the side of a gondola and you end up chasing them round the top station, acting like King Arthur trying pull Excalibur out of a rock. This happened to me the other day.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
Why not make equipment that allows people to enjoy a sport. Big headed titanium drivers for golf, oversize tennis rackets, etc. the use of which could be accused of "throwing money at the problem" but if big fat skis allows you to enjoy riding snow why not. Or, should we all be on wooden planks with leather boots with only the fittest athletes able to enjoy the mountains.
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It's interesting that we have the curmudgeons of this world moaning about how we ought to go back to wooden tennis rackets and drivers, how fat skis are cheating etc etc but guess what? Federer has a large headed tennis racket; Tiger Woods uses a huge titanium driver; whoever you care to name as a great off piste skier uses wide skis. this is not because they need them in order to perform at all. it's because the hi tech equipment allows them to perform at their very highest level.
i just don't think the curmudgeon's argument adds up. it's a bit like an early intermediate saying, "i've done that green run on a pair of nice modern carvers, now, instead of trying a blue run, i will improve my skiing and have a great time by doing the same green run on a pair of 200cm straight skis; now i've done that, I'll do it in leather boots and cable bindings, now i'll do it with skis which don't have metal edges"; now i've done that, i'll do it without skis at all and just walk down - is that the logical conclusion 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Arno, well, actually, you could do that. If thats what you find interesting. I suppose people ski for different reasons and I like to push myself and enjoy challenging kit. So someday, I should try older kit to see what it's like and I would probably enjoy the experience (After all, 50 years ago people thought it was the most cutting edge kit in the world.)
But that isnt the curmudgeonly response so I suppose you are right.
I skied three days off piste on my Volkl 5* and (when not picking myself out if the snow) learnt loads about breakable crust. On day 4, I rented Legend8000s and didnt fall over. But did I learn as much ? I had a great time either way, but then thats me 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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lampbus, If you really hate yourself you should try Telemarking
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lampbus, let's look at it the other way round. suppose i say that using skinny skis on piste is just for people who can't carve using fat skis? and grooming pistes is just to flatter those who can't ski variable snow off piste?
actually, i am a reformed curmudgeon. i was the golfer struggling with a wooden driver, then a small-headed metal driver before finally seeing the light and getting a big headed titanium thing which makes golf much more fun for me. i don't doubt that you can have fun off piste with all sorts of things strapped to your feet - it's just the attitude that it's cheating to choose something specifically designed for the job or that there's some moral high ground to be had from skiing on old kit which strikes me as a bit strange
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When I was a kid, I had wooden thin heavy planks with heavy metallic bindings. They were 165 cm and I was 11. I then later got a pair of 185cm in some sandwiched plastic stuff. I also took from the ski center old short 140-150cm long skis to jump and have fun in the air - I still remember the spring with 10m long 360s. At that time, we did not grab. Oh, I managed an almost standing 720. The last proper ski of mine was a 203 slalom ski. My brother later got a 205 Fischer WC slalom ski which I skied the last time six years back.
We skied all kinds of conditions, mainly on easy slopes though, since we had nothing better. We made gates to keep us interested. Now, I ski either carvers and just got my first really big ones - former Supermonster teams at 103, 183. I don't ski anything under 180 cm. I think its too short. My point in skiing is having fun. If a 78mm ski doesn't make skiing as fun as 84mm ski - or 103mm - then I take the wider version. It's like in the early days, when I wanted speed I would ski the long SL or GS, and for jumping take the short, we now can choose.
Someone said horse for courses. It works for skiing too. Let's not be too dogmatic and take the most out of it!
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Arno, for me it's more to do with compromise. You don't see slalom racers on 100 wide twin tips or extreme freeriders on 65 wide race skis. Most people's idea of off-piste is nowhere near as extreme as what you see on ski porn videos and most people don't need full-on slalom race skis either. How you choose to bias that compromise is purely down to personal preference. I like skis that are lively and carve well on piste, but can still handle "real life" off-piste without too much effort. In recent years I've been more than happy with skis in the mid 70s width for everyday use. Now some people are raving about the on-piste ability of wider skis I'll give them a demo next time out.
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uktrailmonster, totally agree. my only argument is with the idea that fat skis are cheating
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Arno, it's like saying that doing aerials with 145cm long ski would be cheating. Or running a 100m dash with shotput trainers. There's nothing cheating about it to my mind - as you say: it's about having fun. With equipment of today, more and more people can have fun skiing, and I do not find anything bad in it. Off piste does not require the same skills/mindset as it did 15 years ago. While I somehow feel it's pity, as it gets crowded outside the groomed areas, at the same time it makes a positive difference for me personally too. And that, that is fun.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, totally agree. my only argument is with the idea that fat skis are cheating |
nah, only using a snowboard in deep snow is cheating
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| demos wrote: |
| Arno, Off piste does not require the same skills/mindset as it did 15 years ago. While I somehow feel it's pity, as it gets crowded outside the groomed areas, at the same time it makes a positive difference for me personally too. And that, that is fun. |
Yeah, I've noticed how much quicker off-piste areas get skied out these days. Probably just more skiers out there and faster lifts.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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now i'll do it with skis which don't have metal edges </>
Just been doing that, and they were 195 long and 44 wide and with no sidcut. Its called cross country. To make it worse there were another 200 people racing around the same 2.5km circuit and they were all faster than me which made getting out of their way as they overtook me interesting. Tommorrow its 15kms of classic (and 205 skis), if the snow holds out!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Arno, I will admit that I'm not curmudgeonly enough to not use wider fatter skis, especially in crappy snow. But I am not convinced that being able to buy skis that are fat enough to make skiing powder almost the same as skiing on piste is a good thing. Why would it be? Buy narrower skis and stay on piste it's safer and you'll have as much fun.
Although I'm not quite sure how heli-piste-skiing has quite the same cachet...
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
Arno, I will admit that I'm not curmudgeonly enough to not use wider fatter skis, especially in crappy snow. But I am not convinced that being able to buy skis that are fat enough to make skiing powder almost the same as skiing on piste is a good thing. Why would it be? Buy narrower skis and stay on piste it's safer and you'll have as much fun.
Although I'm not quite sure how heli-piste-skiing has quite the same cachet... |
well that's me put in my place
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, never!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| Buy narrower skis and stay on piste it's safer and you'll have as much fun. |
Safer maybe, but not nearly as much fun.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kramer, remember, David Murdoch enhances his skiing enjoyment by whipping himself with birch twigs as he goes 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We Finns do that in sauna, but not outdoors. Whipping with birch twigs that is.
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Look it's obvious why it's tempting to be cumudgeonly -
ANyone who learnt to ski powder on 200cm+ skinny skis had to work damn hard at it. The reward was having lots of powder to ski because relatively few people had the ability to enjoy it. Fatter skis (and not just 100mm+ but even 70-80 midfats) open up the off-piste to many more skiers. Powder gets skied out very quick these days. That's obviously not good news for the cumudgeons but it is for lots of other people who are getting an experience that they would not otherwise have had.
Well there's no putting the genie back in the bottle so the only real option for the cumudgeons is to to take up touring (or heli-skiing I suppose).
All that said, I'm just not sure that for me personally that a 100mm waist IS better than a 75mm waist in the majority of off-piste conditions. My mid-fats seem to give me enough float, are stable at speed, chop through the crud and I suspect are better on hard pack/wind-polished stuff. I feel they give me more choices - let them run for big GS style turns close to the surface or ski them more slowly in 3D (sinking into the powder and rising out of it) in and old-school kind of way.
different strokes...
J
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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After ski sunday I thought the off piste was to be turned into snow Golf Courses, so we dont want you lot skiing on our greens .....(should that be whites?)
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| jedster wrote: |
| Fatter skis (and not just 100mm+ but even 70-80 midfats) open up the off-piste to many more skiers. |
I clearly remember my first off-piste experience on what then was considered a mid-fat (Salomon X-Scream circa 1998). I doubt they were even 70 mm wide, but they were very easy to ski in powder compared to a straight 205 GS ski of a few years earlier. I suddenly felt like a powder god on those after spending many previous years attempting off-piste on narrow straight skis. The good old Screams opened up a whole new experience for me back then. Maybe that's what 90+ wide skis are doing for people today.
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Kramer, "So it's ok for you to use them, just not anyone who's not up to your standard of skiing?" - now, you soooo know I so did not say, nor imply that - honest!
Kramer,  "Safer maybe, but not nearly as much fun.", OK, so here we go. I can buy a bit of kit that makes skiing off piste exactly the same experience from a ski point of view as skiing on piste. So, my question would be, why is it any more fun?
I repeat. Why would a pair of skis that make a pristine, thigh deep, fluffy beyond words, fresh snow fall feel like you're skiing on piste be a good thing? If you want to ski off piste, at least be in a situation where you notice the difference between on and off piste.
I am a big fan of modern skis making life easier in many ways. Having said that, IMHO they have simply moved the "plateau" up a level - removing the turn initiation barrier just lets you get to the next gate.
Which may mean that many more people spend all their lives happy with their capabilities.
Which is brilliant.
Going back on topic. How good do you need to be to go off piste? With the right kit, not very good at all. This is not necessarily a Bad Thing. I'm just not convinced it's necessarily a Good Thing either.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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AxsMan, Some people don't consider 70-80 mm to be enough width for off-piste skiing these days. I think it's plenty for most off-piste, but apparently I'm lagging behind the times
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| AxsMan wrote: |
| I don't think these 'modern mid fat skis' make powder feel like piste |
I agree with this - fat skis don't feel the same as skinny skis off piste, but neither do they feel like you're skiing on piste. When you're off piste, you aren't on your edges. There is resistance from snow against the whole base of the ski.
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FAQ
) when can I get a pair 
