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Apache Recon versus Volkl Karma

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi All

I am just making the jump from a set of Salomon Super Force 9 2S (Pr Cool 2.0 metres which were starting to get embarassing as 1. Too long compared to others and stood out in the lift queue and 2. They must be antique as they are on the wall of Fat Face in Val D Isere in 2006.

I am off to La Plagne on the 27th and I am thinking of buying either the Volkl Karmas with either the Rossignol Scratch Bindings or the Marker M14.0 in the freeride position

Or K2 Apache Recon with the M1 Piston Binding.

I weigh around 85kgs and height is 1.72m, boots are X Wave 9's. I ski agressively and can ski most situations on an off piste and need a ski which can hold an edge on ice in Scotland and perform off piste as well.

My thoughts are the 177 for the Karmas or 181 for the Apache Recon. I have managed to test the upper 160 and lower 170 at Xscape and still felt the skis were ridiculously short.

Any thoughts on length or model? Also, I can get the Karmas for 449€ and the Recons for 399€ from Sport Conrad is there anywhere cheaper out there?

Thanks

Alan
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Hi snowscot, welcome to snowHead!

The Karmas are a good ski (as are the Recons). If you go for the Karma, get the Rossi bindings, which I feel are superior.
In terms of length, I think you need to knock 5+cm off the lengths you are looking at. I'm a bit heavier than you, and maybe 8cm taller. My skis range from 179cm K2 Seth Pistols - purely off-piste, Colorado/Utah powder, 174cm K2 Public Enemies - all mountain and Head 1100SW 170cm for mainly piste.

One other thing, if this is your first time on shorter, more shapely skis, taking a 1 hour private lesson would be a good way of discovering how to get more out of them.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
snowscot, Welcome

Either would be ok....but sub the Recon for the Outlaw and maybe you can do that at 177 as it is wider at 88mm. It will do all the Recon will do but is just a bit slower into the turn, thats all.

I'd think 177 minimum for Karma's as they are a twin and they always ski short IMO.
181 Recons and 177 Outlaws but you'd have to test them.

I've revised this to 177 Karmas and 174 Outlaws.
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I had the Force 9 3S in the same length (think it was 197 or there abouts) but I got rid of mine in 1993 Laughing I ride the Karmas now in 177 with marker 14free binds in the freeride position and I'm 1.82cm and about 97kgs.

The Karmas are the best ski (for me) I've owned and riden since my K2 Velocities in 91. Really nice ski. Likes to be driven. Not the best freestyle ski, not the best, off piste ski, not the best piste ski BUT, damn good at all of those things.

The 177 is the most popular length although for you height it'd be a toss up between the 169 which sounds about right or the 177 which may on the bigger side but would be great for you in the soft.

The 169 will feel short after a 2S PR8 but is I don't think is too short for you. Skis don't have to tower above you these days.

Best bet is to demo both those lengths.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I'm 80kg and 1.73m and ski the 177 Karmas, I think they're a fantastic ski. Got them from Sports Conrad too!!

It was a toss up betweeen the 169 and 177, but as I wanted a go anywhere do anything ski I went for the longer ski; and I haven't regreted it
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I loved the Karmas when I tested them as well.

Have you considered Scott Missions?
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Wear The Fox Hat, do you find the top sheets on you public enemies dont seem to stand up to much punishment or is it just my pair?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
hedley, it's about the only thing I could say bad about them - they have a matt top sheet that is soft and cuts up easily. My Seths have a shiny topsheet which is a lot harder.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Wear The Fox Hat, yeh, great all round fun ski,love them, but look soooo tatty after a couple of days skiing Sad ive taken to lightly sanding them down between trips to get rid of the worst of the bumps/cuts etc.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 10-01-07 22:14; edited 1 time in total
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
hedley, the new Seths/AKs also have the softer topsheet.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Kramer wrote:
I loved the Karmas when I tested them as well.

Have you considered Scott Missions?


Are the Kamas softer than the Scott Missons?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Wear The Fox Hat, i,m not moaning,but you would think the manufacturers would pickup on the vulnerability of the topsheets before putting them to the market or are they putting aesthetics (given the target audience of these skis) over praticalities?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Hi All

Thanks for the input, I am in a bit of a quandry now as Sport Conrad have come back with some advice in terms of bin the Karma's and go for the Mantra's as a comparative ski to the Recon.

I also dropped into Blues the Ski Shop in Glasgow and the ski fitter there said that she does not recommend going above 170 for my height, weight and skiing style and specifically recommended a mid 160 ski in Rossi B2 or Apache Recon. Not sure what is going on there but I felt the 166 was too short when testing some Rossi B2's in 2006 at Glencoe on the Spring Run

Personally, I am swaying to the 177 Karma, I think that I might test them again against the Recon at Xscape at the weekend! Choices, Choices. Ideally I should be testing them in resort but dont want ripped off with top dollar prices is there any reasonable ski shops in La Plagne?

In terms of the soft top sheets, snow and rock used to market a ski saver layer of self adhesive sheet, I am not sure whether the Karmas will damage easily! This might be an idea for the Seth's etc.

I have not considered the Scott Missions as I was looking for a bit of an all rounder and the Karma and Recon seemed to get better reviews. Any comments on the Missions?

Need Good Grip on Ice

Like Big GS Turns at Speed on Blacks/Reds/Short Turns/Jump turns on Off Piste and Steeps

Good Float in the Pow. Bearing in mind I am used to the Super Force 9 2S in the Pow which is seriously skinny!

Am I asking too much for all of this in one ski?

Incidentally, Sport Conrad are selling the K2 with bindings for less than 400€

The price is making the decision hard when compared to the £480-£500 retail in the UK!

Alan
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
snowscot, the Missions are IMHO the ski to have this year. They're Fallliner magazine's ski of the year, backcountry skier's ski of the year, and scored well on the Ellis Brigham tests. They're definitely pretty much the cutting edge of where things are at in terms of all mountain skis. The only place they're not so good is in the Park, but then neither are the Apaches.

DB, I couldn't say for sure as I only tried the Karmas at the Snowdome, but they did seem to have a bit of pop to them off the slight jump half way down the slope.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Kramer, I'm starting to think you're a Scott rep Wink
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
uktrailmonster, Laughing Laughing Laughing

Just very pleased with them.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
From what you've described you should try the Scott Mission, if you search in the forums there is a thread I started about can one ski do it all, and for me the answer was the Scott Mission....
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
snowscot, have you had a look at what Elan has to offer? How about the Magfire 10 or 12?
As for saving the top sheets, it's worth looking at one of the many firms that do signwriting and vinyl graphics. You can buy really tough, scratch resistant, long-life, highly flexible, adhexive-backed clear vinyl for this very purpose. I use it on my enduro bike to protect the graphics on the radiator shrouds and fenders, and even with the bike being dropped and dragged over mud and rocks there's no damage. A 2 metre length of a roll will do 2 pairs of skis. And it'll be so much cheaper than what SnR are offering.
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Kramer,

I'm 10 to 15 kg less than you and some other Scott Mission owners. Suspect that they might be too stiff for me and a slightly softer ski would fit the bill better. My Head Madtrick Mojos could do with being replaced and I was looking for something with a similar flex/stiffness. Can anybody out there help with advice - maybe one of the zookeepers can stop perving at French chicks and say something on this important matter.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DB,

Wouldn't worry about any precieved stiffness of the Missions, they are a doddle to ski and anyone can ride them IMV
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Hi Guys,

Thanks for all of the responses, I have plumped for the Karma's 177 from Sport Corad with the Scratch bindings including postage for a massive £330 compared to the £480 in EB
Its disbusting how we get ripped off in GB.

Hoping that the snow gets better and better for some Powder in La Plagne on the 27th

Alan
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I bought a pair of K2 Recons and have two weeks on piste so far.

I demoed both the 174 and 181 at MK and they felt like completely differenet skis to me and i am wondering if there was a tuning problem. The 174s turned really quick but teh 181's felt like battleships.

I am 193 and 99 kgs and felt the 174s would be to short but so far on piste is very good and grippy with a lot of energy in the turn but the short lenght does show up some poor technique with chattering in the bottom of turns on ice.

snowscot, sorry just saw you bought the karmas good luck with them! can you post a link to sport conrad?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
snowscot, You're not being ripped off in the U.K., Conrad cuts his margins way below operational costs of your average shop, quantity over quality of service, you're cutting out the need for a salesperson, by using this sites services. Evil or Very Mad
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I paid £375 for my recons and Maker 12 bindings at S&R and felt i got a reasonable deal but conrad is putting the same package out at 369 euro plus shipping which compared to the retail of around £430 in the UK does sound like rip off britain to me. sorry but the price of your typical 18 year shop assistant (and I mean typical high street chain store, i appreciate there are good experienced people selling skis) doesnt add up to the difference to me to sell american made skis in Europe.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I have a pair of K2 Apache Recons (174cm) with Marker 12 piston bindings. My stats are: 91kg and 1.83m. I have really enjoyed my Recons and find that the more aggressive I ski with them the better they preform especially on the short radius turns (on piste) which can be a bit of a fight. I also find the edge hold really good on the ice as long as I am able to maintain technique, otherwise i'm all over the place and skidding like an out of control novice!
However, I find them incredibly stable and very fast on slightly longer radius turns and find that they float pretty well off-piste, again, as long as I maintain technique. All in all, I consider them a good all mountain ski (as it says on the tin) .
I will concede to not being an expert skier but thought that I would add my twp pence worth.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Hornster, did you try the 181's???
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret, not yet. To be honest i'm a little nervous to try the 181's in case I like them better and then i'm still stuck with my 174's!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Hornster, i hear that, i have the exact same problem Toofy Grin Toofy Grin i too am scared that the 181's will be perfect and i will end up with two pairs of K2's.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
skimottaret, They'll be made in China, my China. No doubt, this is just a sign of the times, shame, though, advice will eventually become just a few mis-informed, marketting eating web-surfers, looking to endorse their puchases to ease their poor selections based on price. Evil or Very Mad
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
SMALLZOOKEEPER, you may not have noticed from my post but i actually went to a full service shop (S&R) spoke to the manager and was also able to demo the skis. got good advice and bought in the UK. I like to keep my business local but a 30-40% minimum differential is hard to ignore and skis are getting to be commodity items.

Have you ever bought anything online????
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yep, an I-Pod, Apple direct and DVD's from Play, i live in France and can't get UK DVD's. I enjoy shopping and speaking to people. Twisted Evil
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
SMALLZOOKEEPER, sure we all do but when the price differential is getting so huge between buying in person in blighty and clicking on conrad dot com it makes it harder and harder to keep your business local... thats all i was getting at and as i said before i buy all my ski gear local and not online..... Smile
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