 Poster: A snowHead
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Rusty Guy, I heard "high thighs" from a 6 time scottish national team racer and it really clicked for me. i am tall and always struggle to stay out of the back seat.
another cruder form of this idea from an ESF instructor was "less deficate and more fornicate". Only in france could you get away with that.....
Onto the hands forward argument, sure good skiers can ski easy gradients with hands at side or any position but surely having hands forward to promote good balance and posteur is an improtant component for beginners and intermediates to help stay upright and in a dynamic stance.... why argue against that 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Red Leon,
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| would making them ski with their hands way behind them make them compensate by moving their stance forward |
It'll probably make their chest go forward and back bottom stick out more.
I can't really see the connection between arm position and bum sticking out/sitting too far, and think they are two totally seperate issues. Sure, if you're sitting too low (thighs low instead of thighs high), and your bum is too far back, then in a static position the arms will help you balance. If you put arms back then you'll probably stay in the bum sticking out low down position but just tip forwards to counteract.
Now here's a thought. Running is a dynamic activity much like skiing. Your body needs to change position to keep balance when running round corners, up hills and down hills. Find a hill to run down, preferably a slippery grassy slope. Run down it fast while keeping chin up looking ahead where you want to go. You'll probably find, without even thinking about it, that your upper body is perpendicular to the slope - i.e. your upper body is not vertical, but is naturally tilted down the hill in the direction you're running. You'll probably also find that your arms are in a perfectly natural forward position - NOT stuck right out in front of you, but more like your hands and elbows are forward of your waist which is where they need to be. Now, try running down the hill with your arms back (which they may already be if you're nervous about slipping onto your butt) behind you - your body will become more upright, unbalanced and your feet will probably slip forwards from underneath you as your weight goes on to your heels. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It's a confidence thing and understanding that the forward position is the naturally balanced position, and knowing that your body will instincitvely do what it needs to do to keep you in balance when running or skiing down hill. If you start thinking about position then the brain takes over from your instincts and it all goes tits up.
I wonder if many beginners visualise the position of a crouched downhill speed skier and think that's the position they need to be in and "bend ze knees" too far to get to it. "Bend ze knees" perhaps should be reworded "relax ze knees" to get that squatting thing out of a beginner's head.
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petemillis, Spot on. I'm always talking about "being normal" and try to encourage peeps to do just what you suggest. Sadly I doubt many bother!
Nickski No-one has suggested that arms forward is not desirable, merely that it isn't a cure for sitting back. Of course a good hand and arm position are desirable, but to push both hand forward (causing at least squareness if not rotation) will not cure a sitting problem in most cases. Moving the inside arm forward will cure rotaion, but not sitting back. Sitting back is essentially a leg problem. In addition, no-one has suggested that the knee should be anything but flexed.
In addition, I would say that I don't actually give a stuff what any pedagogie says - after more than 30 years of teaching I do and say what works, and that tends to change more or less constantly as I learn new things. "High thighs" will be going into the expression bank for another day for instance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, glad to hear of another convert to "high thighs" didnt you like the french version 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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"bootey over the boots" seems to hit home in appropriate situations
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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AxsMan, sweet keep those thighs high
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, Bet you say that to all the girls! 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Two great tips that worked for me, which cover both sitting back and not leaning back towards the slope when you turn.
First - you should always be able to see both of your hands, even if it's only in your peripheral vision. If you feel uncomfortable, check your hand position.
The other, which made a huge difference to my skiing, was to ski imagining that you are carrying a tray of drinks, and adjust your hands continuously so that you don't spill any. Lots of jokes make follow about beer and apres ski, but it made me ski much much better.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Everyone tells you to feel your shins against your boots. But how? A couple of tips from ski instructors - lift your head up and stand tall. When you turn, spend 'longer' in the fall line. And ..if you tilt your hips slightly forward, this puts your knees / shins forward. Be strong in your 'core'. If you chuck your hands too far forward, you can end up with your bum stuck out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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UPDATE...
Been back from hols for a week or so, just not had time to report back. Certainly the various tips helped, hands forward, tray of beer, shins against boots etc etc. Still felt a little thigh burn, but much more noticable was a great increase in my posture, one of my lot commented that it was the best he'd seen me ski before. Had loads of bumps to contend with too - never a fan before - but keeping forward meant this was a whole lot easier to deal with.
Hoping to be off to SZK part of the world later in the season for a long weekend to continue practising.
Cheers again guys.
IMT
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My suggestion - think of a pelvic thrust.
It's not something you normally do whilst skiing (well...) and it has a similar effect to 'standing up'.
The problem with standing up is that you are already standing up and it's hard to positively stand up more.
A thrust however is a very assertive and small movement that brings you upright and forward.
It also focuses your mind on your hip position and moves it from behind your feet to above (or even further).
Thoughts?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Scarpa, Yep - the exact phrase does vary depending on the company
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Scarpa, what's a "queue"?
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Snooker term.
In US, see "Line"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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marc gledhill, they are owned by K2...
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| IMT wrote: |
My question is this - I there an easy 'ski thought' that I should have in my head to get my weight forward? When I do this, it certainly improves style etc, but I just seem to go back to old lazy way after just a few turns... 
IMT |
Simple. Couple of drawing pins/carpet tacks taped inside your boot behind your calf. You WILL lean forward then!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I even forgot to fasten my boot buckles on one run and never noticed (I did have the straps fastened though and the boots are pretty snug fitting). Makes me realise just how over-tightened I used to ski them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hi all. Did a search on this subject because I tore my thigh muscles quite badly in Jan but managed 2 ski trips anyway. I really suffered because my thigh muscles were, and still are, fairly weak. They used to be v. strong but I'm not sure they will ever be as good as they were.
After only a few hundred metres I was having to stop to allow my thigh to recover (it was only 5 weeks after the accident). It got progressively worse as the day wore on. I realise (now) that part of the problem was that I had lost my nerve a bit as I was really worried about tearing the muscles again. This caused me to sit back which made the problem worse.
One thing I thought of to get me to press forward more would be to adjust the forward lean of my boots to the furthest forward. This would possibly alert me to the fact that my weight was going back as I would feel the back of the boot. Does that seem reasonable?
I should add that CEM fitted my boots so they do fit me well.
I shall definitely try some/all the other ideas (hands forward, pole tips on the snow throughout the turn, etc) 
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I'm minded to parrot the advice of Rob and Scott, when you tell them that you know you're doing something wrong. It's usually, 'Well don't do it then.'  (Sorry if this has already been said, I haven't read the thread.)
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
One thing I thought of to get me to press forward more would be to adjust the forward lean of my boots to the furthest forward. This would possibly alert me to the fact that my weight was going back as I would feel the back of the boot. Does that seem reasonable?
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I don't think so. But people who know far more than I will be along soon to help.
A lesson or two with a good instructor would probably be your best bet.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
One thing I thought of to get me to press forward more would be to adjust the forward lean of my boots to the furthest forward. This would possibly alert me to the fact that my weight was going back as I would feel the back of the boot. Does that seem reasonable?
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This isn't a good idea... you'll reduce the amount of flex available from the boot, and have to ski with your ankles more flexed than before. This leads to more flex at the knee... which leads to being in the back seat..
Remember that every turn will result in the skis accelerating down the hill, faster than the upper body..so at the start of every turn, move your hips foward to reset your position along the length of the ski.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'd go back to CEM and book an appointment with Andi McCann. See http://www.mccannix.com/ . Being in the backseat can be either gear or technique or both. If it is a gear thing then you will struggle to improve irrespective of whether or not you are taking lessons - if it feels like making deliberate changes to your skiing doesn't change things then I'd be suspecting the setup.
As a clue to what sort of gear issues could potentially be going on here and the kind of mechanics involved try standing in your boots and using layers of paper a couple of mm at a time to raise and lower the toe and heel of the boots. I've got to emphasise that this won't diagnose a problem for you and won't give you a solution but will give you an understanding of how small changes under the foot can result in bigger changes in balance further up the body.
Once the gear is dialled in then start worrying about tips/instruction.
I wouldn't muck around with forward lean yourself. As others have mentioned too much forward lean, either in the boot or too much heel height in the binding can shove you too far forward meaning you stick your butt out to balance. The reverse is also true. I should add at this point that I am not an instructor and my only qualification here is having had the CEM/Andi service. Apologies to them if I have misrepresented any of this.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
One thing I thought of to get me to press forward more would be to adjust the forward lean of my boots to the furthest forward. This would possibly alert me to the fact that my weight was going back as I would feel the back of the boot. Does that seem reasonable?
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NO BAD idea... but as gorilla says it may help trying to get your binding ramp angle aka "delta angle " set up correctly.. boots is the first stage then alignment is the second, with your injury i would advise getting this looked at and Andi knows his onions...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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there we go, combination of ramp and ankle flex should deal with this, afterwards just remember, "shoulders and nose in front of the toes"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Long thread.
One little aide memoire might be as follows.
As your instructor says "Try to bring your weight forward by over your feet by flexing down and feel your shin against the front of the boot... "
Try to imagine what he is really thinking which goes something like.
<Instructor>
"What the hell is this guy doing ??,
it looks like some kind of limbo dance !
how did we get from stand up and flex a bit to this weird stuff?...
For crying out loud it looks like something by Salvador Dali, but weirder.
Can these people even stand up ?
He's looking! smile, smile, smile keep it positive.
If they take their skis off do they fall over backwards ?
And his hands !, oh my Lord what is he doing with his hands ?
It honestly looks like he's trying to goose himself !!
What ever was done to this guy to make him think that THAT was a natural relaxed stance ?
Is it some kind of S&M thing... Oh £$$£% he nearly went over backwards, he looks like an arthritic kangaroo, but less elegant.
God I'll need a stiff drink after this.
Oh well, better say something
<Instructor>
Okaaaayyy, nice progress there, perhaps next time try a little more ankle flex to bring you just a little more over your feet ? If that's okay ?
Best advice I ever had:
"Stand-a properly, you iss-a look-a 'orrible and you make-a the place look-a ugly. Stand-a properly or I 'it-a you weeth theese-a steeck-a"
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 30-10-10 12:50; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Last season I skied with shorter ski poles which ment that to achieve a good pole plant my weight was transfered forward without thinking about it. I also tried to relax the shoulders which again seemed to keep the weight more forward ie not to far back.
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Pam-w
Problem with that is, there's a right way and the other way.
a) Relax down, bringing shoulders over knees, hips over ankles, feel movable pressure under feet, move pressure to ball of foot.
b) Or, tense calves and stand up on the balls of the feet within the boot, totally lifting the heel inside the boot
Choose one
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riverman, short poles dont always have that effect... if they are too short you will be overly flexed and when that happens bum can stick out and weight goes too far back... i changed to longer poles and find my stance is more upright and balanced....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, I did not say short poles just shorter than what i had been using. I would agree that poles that are to short could have the effect you desribe.
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FAQ
It's a procedure I reckon I have pretty much got it off to a tee because, as Easiski and others can testify (and despite feeling as though I'm bobbing up & down flailing my arms like a windmill), I feel I am certainly one of those (quote from Easiski above),
I like to think he forgot about my boots as he told everyone else to do up their boots after a few minutes, but it could have been due to the joke I made about the Welsh 