Ankle flex

A snowHead

So, most of us don't flex enough in the ankle and I understand that correcting this not only improves stance and edge-hold etc. but also reduces the dreaded thigh-burn. I personally only get much thigh-burn at either the end of the day, or on steeps where I don't stop for a rest soon enough (!), but I'm just wondering WHY greater ankle flex can alleviate this problem (if indeed my understanding is correct).

Is it because more flex is coming from the ankle than from the knee?

Any physios or physiologists who might be able to explain this phenomenon?

A snowHead

If you have a good stance (centred above your feet when you're in a neutral position) your skeleton will do a pretty good job of supporting your weight. If you lean back too far, a common stance for many (most?) people, your thigh muscles have to do more work to keep you upright, therefore thigh burn. The way to cure being too far back is to flex forwards at the ankle. If you flex at the knee you just drop your backside too low (demonstrating a perfect toilet position, rather than just being too far back if you don't have enough ankle flex).

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

rob@rar, I have just experimented with this in the office (much to the bewilderment of my assistant) and now understand exactly.

An alernative would be elastic strips connected from your ski tips to your waist. Do you think I may be on the way to inventing a must-have skiing accessory?

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zammo, that's a possible idea, although Version B could include elastic straps to connect your backside to the tails of your skis. Guaranteed perfect stance!

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zammo, Stand upright, barefooted. Relax and start to move your upper body forward, shoulders and nose in front of the toes. At some point you will find a balance point between the ball of your foot and falling forward, it will be very slight. Find this balance point and just before you fall forward bend your knees and flex your ankles until you have equal weight/presure on your heels and balls of your feet. If you can't get your weight onto your heels without leaning back, you have a lack of ankle flexion and need a bootfitter to, wait for it V8/ssh, balance your boots, there i said it! Toofy Grin

After all it is free

SMALLZOOKEEPER, got it. Luckily I have loads of ankle flex.

The thing your bootfitter / physio does where you stand facing the wall and try to touch the wall with your knee without raising your heel? I'm good at that, by pure chance. My phsyio reckons I could have been a balet dancer. Clearly she has never seen me dance Embarassed

zammo, I do that all the time without thinking - it probably drives people insane - 'cos it was one of my achilles rehab exercises and it just got ingrained. The flex on that side is actually still (years after the event) weaker than the other: slower as well as lesser.

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laundryman, did you rupture your achilles? If so, OUCH! The guy in A&E thought I'd ruptured mine a year ago but luckily it was just v badly strained. Still, no weight on it for a whole 2 weeks. Fixed now, but I've definitely been lucky with it.

Running, you see, it's bad for you.

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zammo, yep, I thought I'd been shot. After the initial shock though, it went pretty numb and the pain wasn't too bad (I just somehow knew I wouldn't be walking for a while) - until I woke up from the operation. I can recommend morphine!

Squash was my downfall, though I wonder if running up hills led to wear and (ultimately) tear.

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Over the weekend I was given an exercise to do on the chairlift:

Drop both skis so they hang free under the footrest.
Let the ski tips dangle free so they droop.
Lift one as high as I can and hold for a 20-count.
Let that one droop as I lift the other one as high as I can and hold for a 20 count.

Apparently I tend to use both body weight and ski tip leverage against the hip/femur to flex the boot much too much,
and it's causing me to transfer too much weight to the inside ski too soon.

Another quick tip; lift your toes up just as you're about to start skiing. Kind of makes you flex and keeps your weight forward at the same time.

You know it makes sense.

Ankle flex!! Heaven's! I put on the boots and feel imobile from the calves downwards. 'Lean forwards' encourages my instructor/friends etc. I think the're kidding. The only way I can shift my weight forwards is to do it from my upper body. How on earth are you supposed to flex ankles in ski boots!!?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, It does work if you try it. Just relax into the front of your boots, , I'm sure that the boots actually do some of the work for you

A snowHead

I think Megamum has a point though. I'd like to see some expert opinions on forward flex variation in boots. I have good ankle flexion (do the ankle flex exercise each morning when I use the electric toothbrush - one minute each leg!) However, and though I do get reasonable flex on the skis (especially since lessons with easiski) I'm sure my ankles flex more than my boots do. Should I do them up less tightly. Megamum, I think the important thing is that your thighs are fairly vertical, with your hips above your feet. You can't do that without ankle flex. I have noticed the way that ESF ski instructors always have incredible ankle flex, especially when standing at a bar waiting for their coffee to arrive. Have a look, next time you see one. Do their boots flex more than mine?

A snowHead

pam w, if you want expert opinion on ankle flex and ski boot forward flex I would suggest you read/watch the gospel according to Warren Smith. His major complaint with the skiers who attend his courses is that a) they don't have the flexibility/strength to flex their ankles and b) even if they did the majority of recreational skiers use boots that are too stiff for them. Having gone through the conversion process some time ago I would agree. I still ski in a relatively stiff boot (flex is 90) but changed down from a far stiffer boot. I also worked on increasing the strength and flexibility of my lower leg. The resulting improvement in my skiing, and also the reduction in fatigue at the end of the day was considerable. Those snowHead

who ski with Warren will no doubt offer testimony that the first night of any of Warren's courses involves most people's boots being hacked to bits to improve their flex.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

BGA, just a minor point, but saying your "flex is 90" means absolutely nothing, unless you specify the exact brand and model of boot. Unfortunately there is not currently a standard measure for flex that is accepted across the industry.

(Oh, and I agree with WS - at least for me - I've just moved to a much better flexing boot that suits my abilities)

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Obviously I'm still at the hire boot stage. They are obviously set up for my weight and ability, but how tight should I do them up? Is tighter better, or will it limit the ankle flex? The boots I had had a section of notched plastic which passed through an arched fixture and then was pulled tight depending on where I linked a lever mechanism into the notches and then pressed this down on the side of the boot. Hence it was possible to do the boots up to varying degrees of tightness which must affect this flex. Is there a 'rule of thumb' to guide us novices? i.e. able to slide 1/2 fingers comfortably inside the boot etc.

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Megamum, I use to tighen them up as tight as they would go, so I got red marks in my leg all the time, I now have them just "grippy" tight. These are my own boots.

Thanks to this thread I now understand what Ankle Flex is Smile

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Megamum, I tend to ski at the start of the day with the 2nd and 3rd buckles (ie the one at the top of my foot and the instep buckle) loose or even undone. This gives me a chance to warm up my legs and (to borrow a Warren Smithism) 'dominate the boot'. After an hour or so I'll then fasten those up as I'm warmed up and also now probably starting to ski more dynamically and more challenging terrain. You should alter the tightness of the boots throughout the day as you compress the liner but never have them done up so tight that you can't flex your ankle forwards, ideally so that when you do so your knee moves forwards over the front part of your ski binding.
Wear The Fox Hat, fair point, I was in fact going to go back in and edit that post when I read it but unfortunately the air compressor in our cellar at work chose that moment to throw a turbine blade which proved a momentary distraction to say the least.

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Try having the lowest clip o the cuff of the boot loose. This will help make the boots flex more easily.

After all it is free

I have tight calfs which cannot help ankle flex so I need to stretch them out at the gym before I go skiing?

or does this not matter?

Nick_C, The stretching is very important for many reasons. It is very important, especially as you get older.
Lots of folks snap achilles tendons whilst skiiing/boarding. Remember, at least 30 seconds for each single stretch.

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Nick_C, made quite a difference to my skiing. Subject to having no underlying injuries, try standing with your back to the wall, keep your heels, ar*e and back in contact with the wall and see how far you can flex down. When I first started doing the exercise I could get down 4cm, which is appalling. I can now get down by 16cm which is much more like it. I now get a lot less leg pain/fatigue during and after skiing

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This is a very interesting thread - but it has made me wonder if my boots are not tight enough.

When I flex in my (tight as possible) boot, my heels will lift relatively easily. This is not because I don't have reasonably flexible ankles (using BGA's measure I can squat down 13cm with my heels still firmly on the floor).

Does this mean my boots are not tightenable enough? What could I do about it if so?

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Nick L, I'm sure one of the snowHead

boot fitting gurus would be able to help you with this one better than me, but that does sound like your boot shell is too big, or your liners are very compressed. Might be time for a new pair. Critical to go see someone who knows what they doing though so that you end up with the right boot. One thing I've noticed from attending courses where ski equipment is discussed is that people who have been to a specialist boot fitter invariably end up with a boot they are comfortable in and can flex properly whereas if you just go to the local ski shop they often end up selling you a shiny pair of red race boots that Bode Miller and Hermann Maier couldn't flex if they both got in them together. The latter was me about four years ago. Not good!

When flexing in my spankingly good new boots my heel is pushed back and down. When walking the toes are cramped but when skiing the toes have plenty of room.

You know it makes sense.

Frosty the Snowman, that is definitely not what is happening to me!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Have just removed the 'locking screws' from my new Falcon Guns (fitted by SZK at Lockwoods recently Very Happy

), which I believe reduces the flex resistance from 90 to 70 (SZK am I right?) This has made the boots more comfortable to walk in and has also helped me increase my ankle flex when skiing and resist thigh burn for longer. I recall SZK told me that the 90 equated (roughly) to kilos, but I suspect that although heavier than that, I am not working the boots as hard as a more aggressive skier. the more flexible setting definitely feels better.

A snowHead

Thanks for the notes about boot tightness, I'll definitely try the loose straps first in February.

Hooray, I booked our ferry for next Feb - def. on our way again!!

A snowHead

Where are you going Megamum?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

AxsMan, it relates directly to newtons of force required to flex the boot. Weight will have a bearing on this, but not kilo to kilo.

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pam w, the gastrocnemius is the bulgy one, which most would consider to be their 'calf muscle'. It is attached to the bottom of the femur and inserts into the Achilles tendon. The gastrocnemius, along with the soleus and tibialis are probably the main ones in terms of ankle flex. The stretches you describe are fine for these muscles, probably coupled with calf raises to increase power - there are of course loads of other exercises, stretches and balance work that all help. High heels will shorten the muscle fibres, reducing flexibility considerably. That's why I stopped wearing them. Oh and my wife pointed out that I am a 6'3" man who weighs 17st and it wasn't such a good look for me.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, out of interest do you know any more about how manufacturers calculate boot flex? I've always wondered what the process is and why they don't calibrate between each other

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Going to Swtizerland its a tiny resort about 20 or so miles from Luzern. Only 1350m though so its fingers crossed for some snow there.

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I tried the ankle flex thing today - I could only manage 12cm. I expected more as I have always ridden horses with feet in stirrups with the toes up and heels down. Mum who's never been on skis in her life and is 60+ could manage 16cm+ I am starting exercises to lengthen those achilles again.

Help!!

Ankle flex

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