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PU Injection liners.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
This i hope will become a fantastic debate. wink
I am interested to hear from any SNOWHEADS whom either perform this technique or use them.
I personally use one, i make 40-50 a year and only use them for clients with deformed feet, exceptional foot shapes or people requiring the ultimate in precision and response.
It would seem other bootfitters may be guilty of using this expensive device to fill up space for the mistakes made in shell choice. What are your feelings and expieriences?
Toofy Grin
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I don't. But whilst fitting my last pair of boots - and squabbling about shell size with the fitter (I wanted, and got, smaller shells than he recommended Shocked ).. the fitter said 'I think you are trying to get a custom fit without paying the price for a custom liner'....well you would, wouldn't you ? Laughing
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My OH has injected liners. He has over pronation in both feet (due to breaking his ankles when a boy jumping off a wall) and totally flat feet. He has had years of problems with painful ski boots and finally achieved the perfect fit using this at profeet, together with blowing out the shell.

So a good use of the technique for him Very Happy
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, HappyMouffe has injected liners - I assume they're polyurethane. They were done in Obergurgl, for Strolz shells - she did try out several (non-injected) boots in the shop. She swears by them, her feet are troll-like, so I guess that could be described as 'exception foot shapes'. She had real problems with her previous boots and rental boots and was, I think, on the verge of giving up skiing and tried injected liners as an "if this doesn't work, then nothing will measure".
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Correct selection, sizing and choice of shell shape, should mean for the most part there are no problems. We use alot of thermo liners to regulate volume, they are warmer, lighter and although they effect the resistance rating(flex), if this is factured into the process, it should be less expensive. Little Angel
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You'll need to Register first of course.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, My two previous pairs of boots had them but they were original Nordica ones rather than an extra purchase.

Both times the process went fine and gave a very precise and comfortable fit.

The first pair was from Killy Sport, the second from EB.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
as SMALLZOOKEEPER says the secret is in the shell selection, if there are a load of lumps and bumps on the foot then dilegent stretching and grinding of the correct shell can alieviate the majority of problems, PU foam is I know being used by a couple of shops as a volume reducer, i have seen a few people lately in relatively low spec boots which have had gallons of foam pumped into them. [this deforms the shell and affects both the fit and the function of the boot] Foam injection seems to be a solution used when the fitter does not understand the foot shape and function, for people with too much money or to speed up the fitting process when time is running out.

there are also a number of feet that PU foam is just totally unsuitable for as they are not musclular enough to withstand the pressure from the foaming process, the foot then remains distorted inside the boot and will never be comfortable

if a performance aftermarket liner is required then PU is good as are the NEW zip fit liners and for comfort and warmth then the thermo liner is a great alternative.

hope this makes sence hic Little Angel Little Angel
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
What happens if one does a PU liner without a footbed?
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
comprex, In my experience either the foot gets pronated into the bottom of the boot OR the foam gets into the area of the arch cavity which would be filled by the footbed and then the foot gets tipped onto the outside edge, all round a bit like throwing the cost of the liner away
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
CEM, would a bit of that effect then carry over into improperly made ones, insufficiently supportive ones, or ones with, ah, inappropriate materials choice?
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
comprex, i would say so, but each case is so individual it is difficult to say exactly what the cause is without seeing all the offending articles

it is also possible to alter the properties of the PU liner by adding more or less catalyst to the foam at the point of mixing, this results in an either firmer or softer liner
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
just seen another boot with way too much foam in....[SZK check this out] c-- foot, 26-- in length and the boot was ....... a head edge 26.5 with a foam liner and a badly made footbed Shocked Shocked


now fitted in 25.5 Nordica SM10 with the standard liner and minimal mods Little Angel
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
SMALLZOOKEEPER, CEM you chaps do seem to have a bit of a downer on PU liners. I'm happy with the idea that a bootfitter *could* have sorted out HappyMouffe without using injected liners, but the fact is that didn't happen. It did cost more than a standard boot, but then if you lose a couple of days skiing because your boots hurt your feet - how much is that worth? And if you make a special trip to a bootfitter to sort you out, how much will that cost you?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hoppo, sorry but i dissagree that we have a downer on PU foam, my only problem with it [and i think SZK will agree] is when it is used in the wrong situations. if the fitting is done correctly [required levels of comfort , performance etc] in the first palce, be it a standard liner or an injection one, then whatever the cost it is worth every penny...this is not to say the boot fitter should over charge.

the majority of problems are when the bootfitter uses the foam as a filler for extra space rather than to fill the cavities round the foot [think that makes sence]

there are palces [in the UK, Europe and USA] that put a low volume foot in a high volume boot and pump it full of foam..... all very well you may think but this results in a large volume of foam which will break down quickly

PU gives a fantastic fit when used in the correct circumstances, the shell is and will always remain the key to getting the fit right, what the foam SHOULD be uesd for is to give a precise fit around the foot, what this means is the fitter should stretch or grind the shell to accomodate the boney protrusions then the foam can fill in an even layer around the foot, if the shell is not correct and the fitter cannot be bothered to do the shell work then all that is achieved is a layer of foam which varies vastly in thickness, this makes for inconsitancy in flex, cold spots in the boot where the foam is thin and areas that will break down quickly where the foam is too thick

hope all that makes sense, i actually like foam liners but only when called for Little Angel
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
CEM, I had some foam liners made for my boots at the end of last season after pretty much the whole of the season going back and forth to our hire shop trying to get a boot to fit. I have very long and very thin feet and tiny skiny ankles and was finding that even on the narrowest boots that my foot was bearly touching the sides and I was getting a lot of movement when I skied. I tried on a lot of boots and eventually settled a Lange CRL 80 as they seemed to come the nearest to fitting. Before having the foam put in we tried from what I could make out most other alternatives in varying combinations - inner soles, heal raisers, strips of foam stuck to the outside of the liner around my ankles and also some sort of sleave think that laced up around the liner (almost like the inside of a snowboard boot) and whilst this did help a bit it also made it nearly impossible for me to get the boot on or off as the lacing went right down under the hard shell and I couldn't get enough of a flex to get my foot in or out. After many miserable mountain days my boot fitter suggested the foam liners as one last option. (BTW I didn't have to pay for them as we do alot of work with this particular shop so there certainly weren't any finacial motives on his behalf). I understood that they would require a little bit of wearing in, and to be fair I didn't get much skiing done in them at the end of the season, but I put them on yesterday for the first time this year and after about 2 hours was in a lot of pain! I wonder perhaps if I had them done up too tight putting too much pressure around my ankles as I had been so used in the past to cranking the buckle up? Any suggestions as to how long I should expect it to take before they are warn in and comfy - or if there is anything more that I can do to them to improve the overall comfort would be much appreciated. On the plus side my foot did stay exactly where is was meant to when I went out yesterday......
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hoppo, CEM has said it all, we want to save you money! Today i have fitted 2 injections, have another this P.M. and 4 on Monday. I love making them, it takes real pride and effort. Too many seem just to either try and do it too quickly or as CEM has pointed out, to fill space. Toofy Grin
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
katski, how long is it since you wore the boots??

it will take a couple of days to get them warmed up to your feet, and probably the same each season if you only ski a few weeks
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
CEM, I'll give them a bit more time in that case and see if they improve. Thanks Very Happy
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CEM, SMALLZOOKEEPER that's alright then Little Angel HappyMouffe does love her boots and gets quite animated when their honour may be impugned Shocked

My aunt got some, but mice in the loft ate them Shocked
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