 Poster: A snowHead
|
Alistair
| Quote: |
| fraserp, apologies for my rant. Beercon 5 . |
Accepted. 
Carroz
| Quote: |
| DrBullet, I agree with all you have said. I think the idea of putting 2 winter tyres on the front of a front wheel drive car is to be honest rather dangerous for the average driver. |
Thats a good point, it'll also go against manufacturers recomendations. Same boots all round. It'll make the skid protection system (if you haveone) go into over drive! Consider that manufacturers even rec. that you should always put new tred on the rear, not the front for the same reason.
CEM, what ever you decide, regardless of whether you splash out on tyres, if the road signs state you need chains, you still have to have them with you. Try explaining not having them to the local gendamerie. It'll be on a hill, in snow storm, -20c, probably at night, and he wont have a sense of humour!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
About time for my 10p's worth !
For the odd trip I would say snow tyres are not worth the expense, the wear rate on normal dry roads will be extreme if they are 'proper' ones & the handling in dry condiions will not be as good as on normal tyres.
Don't have a problem with using just 2 on the front of a FWD car, but as above, think it's a waste of money.
Spend the snow tyres money on a day at a skid pan 
Chains are a definate yes to carry, if the condiions are bad enough to need chains you will be going nowehere without them!
The most important thing to driving on ice/snow is to drive smoothly, be gentle with brakes & steering & allow masses more distance to stop.
If the brakes lock in a straight line you can try tapping your foot on the brake pedal (it's called cadance braking) a good driver can stop quicker using that than most ABS systems!
If the front wheels are locked under braking & you are steering say to the left but sliding to right, lift your foot off the brake pedal & the car will start to turn to left & so on., most accidents on slippery surfaces happen whilst the driver has his/her foot planted solidly on the brake pedal ! It takes a bit of nerve to lift your foot off in that situation but gentle re-applications will work, honest 
Before everyone starts ripping my suggestions to pieces let me say why I think I am qualified to make them:
I have done numeroues snow & ice rallies including the Arctic rally & have also done ice racing in Finland.
I have won a British rally championship, driven for Ford & Subaru factory rally teams & been an instructor at Silverstone, Welsh Forest Rally School & London Rally School. (pity I am not as good on Ski's) 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
FenlandSkier
Possibly, it might work for some roads, those with snow gates eg up to Cairngorm, the pass over the lecht and over Glenshee for example. Bet it never happens though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
and provenjohn, much respect for your 'qualifications'
|
Agreed and IMHO - END OF THREAD
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Like everything in life you weigh up the risk-versus-cost. If you're a rally driver and/or used to driving and handling a car in snow and ice then you probably think winter tyres are a waste of money. However your average driver (especially from the southern half of the UK) doesn't have the same sort of experience and winter tyres just might stop someone from having a prang.
I thought the post by Dypcdriver hit the nail on the head - whilst driving on winter tyres you're saving the tread on the summer ones, so just delaying your next tyre purchase...
It's also been mentioned on another thread that in Switzerland you could be held liable if you are in an accident caused by driving on summer tyres:
Conti-online.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Most roads are cleared pretty quick nowadays in Switzerland, Austria. Your only required to have compulsory winter (M & S) tyres in certain places or carry chains, these are well sign posted.
No tyres will prevent an skidding on black ice , which is everywhere during the winter months.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
But summer tyres won't get you up a hill in snow no matter how good you are at controlling a spin on the skid pan.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| But summer tyres won't get you up a hill in snow no matter how good you are at controlling a spin on the skid pan. |
Suit yourself then, you are obviously the expert 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
But summer tyres won't get you up a hill in snow no matter how good you are at controlling a spin on the skid pan.
|
I doubt winter tyres would either in that scenario - Stick the chains on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
CANV CANVINGTON, I think there's not a lot of point making any intelligent comments on here as they usually get slated.
Don't think I will bother in future
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
provenjohn, I thought your original post intelligent but I can't see where you have been slated in this thread 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
provenjohn,
I can't disagree with your comments about the driving style as its how I try and drive in snow, but from personal experience the big adavantage I find with having snow tyres is actually getting up hills without having massive wheel spin and failing - particularly if you have to stop half way up because of the failure of the car in front. All from personal experience of driving for 10 years on snow in Scotland with winter tyres fitted. A classic example a couple of years ago was going to the Lecht - steep hill up from the Stratdon side - ended up stop on the steepest section as cars ahead had come to a halt the first was a 2wd with summer tyres and he was causing the blockage due to wheel spin. Several of us pushed him up the steepest section and he was OK. Next was a AWD subarru with summer tyres - he had a fair bit of wheel spin on starting but kept it going with no help. Myself had no wheel spin with snow tyres on 2WD car. Now it may be down to my driving style and skill , but I very much doubt it, I reckon it was the snow tyres.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
provenjohn,
France appear to be more relaxed on this issue but in Austria you will have insurance issues if involved in a winter crash with summer tyres. Even if you have a crash on black ice, with winter tyres your insurance still has to pay out. If somebody hits your car on black ice but they have winter tyres and you don't, their insurance may not pay out.
The Austrian AA equivalent (ÖAMTC) disagrees with your point of only 2 winter tyres.
Some hills are a struggle to get up even with winter tyres, summer tyres wouldn't get you up and you'd be messing about with chains holding up the properly equipped cars behind you.
You might be the best driver in the world but it can be that someone with winter tyres does something stupid then brakes but your summer tyres don't allow you to stop in time.
Certain resort villages are low and well cleared but I'd like to see you get up some of the roads in places like Obertauern or Hochkar during a heavy winter with summer tyres. There are often steep switchbacks that don't give you the opportunity to carry much speed with you.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 14-12-06 14:03; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Is there any doubt that winter tyres give better grip in the wintry conditions that you are going to find in resort, and occasionally elsewhere? In my experience there's a huge difference in traction, but that may be more a function of my relative inexperience of driving in snow and ice.
If there is a difference in grip between winter and all-season tyres then surely the judgement that snow tyres are/aren't a waste of money is purely personal, perhaps relating to how much you are prepared to pay to avoid fitting chains?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
If there is a difference in grip between winter and all-season tyres then surely the judgement that snow tyres are/aren't a waste of money is purely personal, perhaps relating to how much you are prepared to pay to avoid fitting chains?
|
Not sure yet - see if I see a difference between the all season tyres I had last year (vredestein quatracs) to snow tyres this year (vredestein snowtrac 2). I found the all season tyres good last year and the pair on the drive wheels lasted for 50k miles before needing replacing. They weren't noticeably worse than previous snow tyres I've used. But in the past I've just specified snow tyres to the garage and they have fitted whatever they have had - so quality and performance may have been less than better/more expensive snow tyres. This year I tried to get snowtracs, or a couple of other snow tyres that did well in the Austrian AA tests. Had a bit of dificulty finding any snow tyres even here in scotland.
If I lived in the South of the UK and was just going to the alps once a year then I'd just go just with chains. However as I live in NE Scotland and am driving to the ski areas most weekends when there is snow, and to the Clash on midweek evenings to do xc if there is snow then I've gone for snow tyres.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| to the Clash on midweek evenings to do xc |
Blimey, how times change. One minute you're a cutting edge post punk beat combo, the next you're giving X-country skiing lessons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| Not sure yet - see if I see a difference between the all season tyres I had last year (vredestein quatracs) to snow tyres this year (vredestein snowtrac 2). |
I've got a recent example which proved to me that there was a huge difference. There is a short, moderately steep access road to my apartment in Les Arcs. In the last couple of weeks I've driven two cars up it (both small, front wheel drive cars), in very similar snow conditions (three or four centimetres of fresh snow, on top of a bit of ice). The first was shod with regular tyres, and completely failed to get up the access road as there simply wasn't enough grip. The second car was had winter tyres and drove up the road without any hesitation. Just about the only difference between the two occasions was the type of tyre used. I've never had to fit chains when driving a car with winter tyres, but fairly often had to fit chains when on regular tyres. In my limited experience the difference in grip between the two types of tyre is huge. As I have a pathological hatred of fitting chains, the additional cost of buying winter tyres or paying extra for a rental car to come with equipped is a price I'm happy to pay.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
rob@rar,
The quatracs are not summer tyres - but all season tyres. In the Austrain AA tests the performed quite well, but not as well as proper snow tyres. The quatracs were much better than summer tyres. They have quite a chunky tread pattern and a compound designed for low temperature conditions ( according to Vredesteins blurb). I had the qutracs for the last two winters by default - I asked for snow tyres at the garage and thats what they put on. They performed well in the first winter and being all season I left them on over the summer. I tried to replace my rears with the same when they needed replacing, but the garage couldn't get two so fitted T-tracs instead. As the quatracs were dead ( after 50K miles) this winter I've now fitted snowtracs allround. I'll have to swap those out. The T-tracs will go back on the back and I'll probably go for another set of quatracs for the front. I have a second set of rims picked up free when I bought the skoda so its not a problem swapping them around.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I thought Dave Horsely statement that a driver will have a great difficulty in getting up a snow bound gradient on a set of summer tyres is accurate and fair but possibly wouldn't apply to rally drivers.
I believe technically a winter tyre must be softer to withstand the lower temperature as it got silica rubber compound inside. Additionallly all winter tyres will have sipes, which are thin zig-zag grooves that can trap the snow particles to improve traction. Winter tyres are also biased to block patterns whereas for high speed on dry surface driving continuous tread (rings) improve stability and performance. To cut the continuous rings into block segments increase road noise. Thus the material in a winter tyre and its tread pattern are different from summer tyres.
The alll season tyre is somewhere in between a true winter tyre and a standard high speed and hard-wearing summer tyre but it is common for such tyre to retain a good portion of sipes and integrated "mud & snow" block pattern. Some all season types can cope with worser winter condition than the others and that is largely reflected in the tread design.
It is my own experience too that cars on winter tyres have a less need for the snow chains. I run a 4x4 with all season tyres but the snow chains are still unused after 5 Alpine trips. I have previously skid on a lesser 4x4 at a walking speed at a roundabout but put down the accident on using the stock summer tyres on a wet snow surface.
Different drivers may have their own experience but if tyres are engineered and manufactured to cope with winter conditions they will perform in such designed conditions.
I believe it is common in this country for drivers to dismiss winter tyres and that goes a long way to explain why we have serious traffic jams whenever there is a bit of snow on the public roads.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
provenjohn, I agree with most of what you say but from your impressive experience, just a couple of questions though:
What is the technique for getting up a hill in snow on summer tyres in FWD and in RWD?
Is manual cadence braking in expert hands really superior to a modern ABS system?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I can't believe that direction this is going with people getting a wee bit snippy to each other. It's really fairly simple, it's all(5) or nothing. All you do with mix-n-match is create questions for the police (wherever they may be based) and your insurance company . . . and we all know how kind, understanding and flexible they are.
Driving skills are a matter of pride, puffery and (chough)pollux, even the very best on the WRC embed themselves in trees. All everyone is arguing about is the degree of risk that you are willing to accept. Some people have a high opinion of their skills and a low opinion of the risks . . .
NOBODY is perfect and road conditions are not set by you, it's your responsibility to other road users and your passengers to minimise all the risks in driving anywhere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
slikedges,
I think it is possible. These guys can let the car deliberately slide to a sideway position, use a bit of throttle and could be away in a brink of an eye, obviously not doing in in the middle of a traffic jam.
Equipment is important to novice drivers but rally drivers compete in a break-neck speed in conditions we would consider out of control. They could make up the equipment deficiency by skill up to a certain point.
Masque
It is like a skier using a pair of hired skis for the beginners to try an Olympic ski jump slope. He/she may have the necessary skill to survive but the much longer and fatter skis are recommended for such an attempt.
If James Bond does it he probably needs only half the ski, blind folded, with a lady on his back and still out-paces the baddies chasing him.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 15-12-06 9:45; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
even the very best on the WRC embed themselves in trees.
|
All too frequently, but isn't that why we watch 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
A rally driver will always use the best set of tyres for the job. On snow they use really skinny tyres. I would have thought that the advice from a rally driver would be to choose the best tyres for the task.
I've been to Norway in the winter and most of the cars use studded tyres right through the snowy months.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Frosty the Snowman,
Must be sometimes ago as I didn't see many studded tyres in the last 5 to 8 years myself. They do use them but the number seems to be in the minority.
My bother who lives there has survived with only snow tyres on a VW van and he has been driving the kids to various skiing competion events. He is still undecided on buying a set of snow chains. He confirmed there had been a couple of times that the only way he could overcome the slope was to reverse into it.
Others may laugh at snow tyres and chains but if one drives in an environment that everthing is white for hundreds of miles one may put a bit more thought on the choice of equipment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saikee,
My experience of Norway - two xc holidays with a friend who lives in Oslo - was that out in the country most of the cars were fitted with studded tyres as was my mates van as he was frequently out in the country, skiing, walking etc. The car and minibus we hired were also equiped with studded tyres ( and the minibus came with chains aswell). In Oslo itself studded tyres were less common - mainly because you had to pay a studded tyre tax to use them - as they cause more road damage. In Oslo most tyres were winter tyres.
Driving on studded tyres was interesting as it was amazing what you could drive up without loosing traction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Interesting thread guys, I've bought some snow tyres, Goodyear Ultragrip. For me it is just about safety and possible insurance issues. Last year I went with summer tyres and I couldn't get up on certain hills (quiet area didn't block any other traffic) and the whole time I was driving I just felt less secure because of the wrong tyres. Sure it cost a bit of money, but feeling more secure (and probably not just feeling but actually being more secure) and knowing I won't have problems with police/insurance (related to wrong tyres) should I ever have some accident, made me buy them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Come to Switzerland. Once the average temperature is below 5 deg C all the Swiss dutifully swap to winter tyres. It is not illegal to drive shod in summer attire but if you cause an accident or block an approach road thereby giving the police cause to attend you will be liable for any bills. Swiss bills can be prohibitive. Therefore my wife and I dutifully follow suit and shoe our 4WDs with winter attire and because they are Audis we are exempt needing to carry chains (local rule apparently) and in 200 ski days in the Alps neither of us have had cause to use chains. Although 4 years ago in my 4WD Golf with winter tyres I slid serenely onto a rock and grounded the sump, so you can't win them all - the insurance company coughed up 7 grand for that.
Common sense should prevail. We are not rally drivers but have done plenty of winter miles in the Alps and would prefer to have the security of decent technology...
The snow is falling and the Grands Montets is good today apparently - so see ya!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
CEM, where're you going to store them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
CEM, and how are you going to store them...................laying down, stacked upright on rims or off rims???? I trhink we need another thread!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
boredsurfin, the literature claims them to be great below +7 and no noticable difference from a summer tyre above that, i have heard that they are a little fuzzy at high speed in the warm, so they will come off come the spring
slikedges, in my garage
boredsurfin, off rims but not got a clue
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
CEM, no room in mine! Until I move...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| boredsurfin wrote: |
| CEM, and how are you going to store them...................laying down, stacked upright on rims or off rims???? I trhink we need another thread!! |
As much as I hate to stir the debate any further, I'd be interested in how to store winter tyres when they're off the car. Is there any danger they could be distorted in some way because they are not stored on rims
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alastair, BMF_Skier, Sorry, been away in St Anton for a while and INET connection troublesome. While away I bought snow wheels (ie smaller wheels as recommended, plus the tyres).
I was told both by a local and by an English friend who lives in Austria that insurance is invalid in the mountains without snow tyres.
Now this may be only in Austria, or perhaps just the Alberg region, or even just St Anton. But I do not think it is a co-incidence that I got the same view from these two completely different sources.
I would imagine that, as you have to purchase supplementary insurance for many UK-based motor insurance policies to extend cover to Europe, that thesre are additional policy conditions, which apply to insurance cover for use in Europe (e.g. the carriage of a warning triangle, chains, day-glo jacket etc etc).
Why not snow tyres?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
CEM, Good move. Let's hope we all get enough snow for you to benefit from them. When I bought mine last year I could not believe the difference they made.
I drove through the same snow storm as Rob@rar last year on the way home on 30th Dec following snow ploughs three abreast for a couple of hours. That trip alone, for the safety of my family made any cost worth it.
I obviously don't know what tyres you normally have on your car, but my Alpins were slightly cheaper than my Michelin Primacv's  So as far as I am concerned all this talk about them not being worth the cost is irrelevant, as while they are on the car i'm not wearing out my summer tyres. I bought a spare set of rims off ebay for my pug 406 (chap was buying some flash alloys) just to make life easier. As I expect to keep my car for a few more years the cost will be recouped against not having to have them changed and I can swap them whenever I want.
I remember reading that ideally they should be stored laying down (in the dark, don't ask me why) or if on rims in dark with increased tyre pressure.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 19-12-06 11:03; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Certainly interesting reading - at this late stage (off tomorrow  ) will stick with normal All Weather tyres and chains. Have had a hunt through the RAC/AA and other sites and there is no mention of legal requirement for Winter Tyres in France anywhere.
Will certainly consider a pair for future trips though as think they would be useful investment
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
