 Poster: A snowHead
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i am planning to drive out to the alps once possibly twice this winter..... a friend who does the same [a couple of times more maybe] has put snow tyres on his car, he puts 2 snow tyres on the driving wheels and leaves normal tyres on the back, he claims it has never caused him a problem
what are the views........
2 tyres is good
you need all 4
you're wasting time and money
obviously chains to be carried as well
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would never mix tyres on a car. It's a totally alien concept and close to a hanging offence.
There again I drive a quattro.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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CEM, All the info I've got says all 5 wheels for snow tyres, chains on driving wheels except 4wd which should have all 4 driven wheels with chains or left in 2wd and just the drive wheels chained up, something about transmission 'wind-up' that can destroy the transfer box . . . though this may not apply to modern fluid coupled and computer controlled 4x4 systems.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's very simple. For most people, unless snow tyres are legally required, they're a waste of time and money. Simply use chains (when needed) and drive sensibly. Simple solution that's served me fine in 20 years of driving 2WD cars to the Alps, including 2 seasons spent in VT. Never had any difficulty progressing along any road or hill.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Aah, but if you have an accident in a snowy alpine area and you are not using snow tyres then is your insurance valid? It's worth checking.
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Another vote for:-
2 tyres is good - No same tyres on all 4 wheels.
you need all 4 - Yes!
you're wasting time and money - Could have winter tyres. These dramitically improve grip and operate best at lower temps. They do wear much quicker at higher UK temps.
obviously chains to be carried as well - Definately, the police may insist you have them onboard, even if not used. Ive driven 3 times in the mountains, used chains once and boy did I need them!
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B00thy, my UK insurance makes no reference to snow tyres. Anyway, I have never had to make a claim - note 'drive sensibly'. I have found it necessary to push others (without chains) up hills, as well as teach a French ambulance man how to put his chains on  . As I said, unless snow tyres are legally required, they are a waste of time and money. Sorry, I'm sure that's horribly un-PC.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
B00thby wrote: Aah, but if you have an accident in a snowy alpine area and you are not using snow tyres then is your insurance valid? It's worth checking.
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Insurance should be valid but, if you are involved in any accident abroad in the mountains, I suspect the opposing insurance Coy, will go after you if you do not have tyres that are suitable for the conditions. Seen reports about Austria in particular.
Other posts refr to it as a 'waste of money' but this is really down to:-
1) can you afford to buy them or not?
2) Is stopping before impact a consideration?
Do a seach on stopping distances in tyres on the web, just affected by wear let alone winter specific tyres. Increases stopping distances by up to 60% and still legal! See:- www.etyres.co.uk/tread-depths-distance. that 60% can mean the difference.... 
I dont have a 4WD but until this year I never had winter tyres, but budget allows so I have. BTW, I always carry chains on the hill. This year I needed a new set of boots, so I got a winter set that I'll use till Feb\March and then I get the cheaper 'standard' kit. By rotating the wheels I'll get at least 4 seasons out of them. You dont need to be in the mountains to benefit, it'll even improve car handling in the UK. From a Tyre manufacturers Web site
A wet road or one that is covered with melting snow - Is twice as slippy
A snowy road - Is 4 times as slippy.
An icy road, - Is 8 time as slippery as a dry road
Having said all this, knowing my luck I'll probably stop and get beamed ended by a muppet who knows better but has a worn set or standard summer tyres! 
Drive carefully.. that is the end of the Public Service announcement........
Hey ho....
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[quote="fraserp"]
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Other posts refr to it as a 'waste of money' but this is really down to:-
1) can you afford to buy them or not?
2) Is stopping before impact a consideration?
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Utter nonsense. If you really think that you are such an incompetent driver that you need special rubber to stop you hitting the car in front, then go out and buy special tyres for your week in the Alps. If you understand the idea that your stopping distance will be increased on ice, and that means slowing down and/or leaving extra space in front of you, then take your ordinary tyres and drive sensibly.
Of course, if you're doing an entire season and driving up and down the mountain every week then the increased speed available from winter tyres will be really useful right up until you get stuck behind a slower driver like me.  Having done two seasons in VT, I remain of the view that snow tyres are completely unnecessary for the occasional week's holiday. What snow tyres may do is delay, or eliminate, the need to put the chains on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Alistair: Thank you for your reasoned reply and selective quoting 
I refer to my previous posting in full, (not just the quote). BTW I do drive sensibly, i'm not an incompetant driver and I dont need a lecture on how to do it! Its nice to know that Alistair has had such an extensive driving experince without mishap, long may it continue. My choice for the use the winter tyres is not only for the trip , that would be a waste of money, but also for the benefits they give in the UK winter conditions. I do around 60K PA on UK roads, and 30 years driving, much of which has been in Scotland and it's winter, (not the arctic I know) so I can speak with some authority on driving conditions. I also had a close relative seriously injured by a 'muppet' who couldnt stop in time on a side road. His tyres were legal, barely. The difference was a charge of driving without due care rather than loosing their licence which they deserved. So again, I think I may have some life experience here.
It's not about speed on these tyres it's about control. And I've the wheel spinning antics of ill prepared drivers and vehicles attempting the run up from Moutiere, icy roads, snow etc. It was almost laughable. BTW, these were reps attempting to get mini busses up the hill on a Sunday morning!
Back to the original question posed by CEM:
IMHO
The extra grip on these tyres can make a difference, that was the point.
If you do have them, they need to be all round. Not just on the front.
Do not forget chains
Where ever you drive, take care, be safe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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thanks guys,
has no one seen the long range forecast, it is to snow for the whole of Jan & Feb in the UK so we better all get down to the dealer and get snow tyres 
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Alastair,
If you regularly drive in an area with snow you should fit snow tyres - and that includes northern scotland. It pisses me off every year that as soon as the snow comes I'll be driving into work or home from work or both behind a queue of traffic doing 10mph and come the first slight hill I'll be stuck behind cars including 4x4 fitted with summer tyres with there wheels spinning!
On the question of 2 wheels or 4 wheels I'm not sure. I've always in the past just fitted snow tyres to the front so I get drive and then been carefull about cornering and braking so as not to lose the back end. In ten years or so of doing that have only lost the back end once. This year though have fitted snows allround (Vredestein Snowtrac 2s). They went on the car last week and will stay on 'till end April. Cost £250 fitted. They replaced my old quatracs that were on the front only, and lasted for 50,000 miles. Come the spring I'll put my normal tyres on the back and as I'll need 2 new tyres I'll probably get some quatrac or similar all season tyres for extra grip on the drive wheels.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't believe that more than a very few once a year visitors to the snow covered (?) roads of the alpine Europe go to the trouble and expense of fitting snow tyres however desirable that may be. It's not going to happen. Most Brits who drive to ski do not fit snow tyres and rely on chains, without mishap. It may not be ideal, but not much is.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
f you regularly drive in an area with snow you should fit snow tyres
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Agreed, but is one or two weeks a year classed as regular?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think the simple answer is go for as much as you want. If you live in a boring flat part of the UK and drive mainly on main roads plus an occasional trip out to the Alps where you stay in slopeside accomodation then the chains option is probably adequate. IMO snow tyres on the drive wheels only are fine but I wouldn't want to drive a rwd car in snow anyway. A great proportion of UK road users have mismatched tyres front and rear (not necessarily side to side) so I'd say 4 matching tyres is overkill in most situations (obviously its the ideal). If you are in an alpine area most of the winter I'd say get at least 2 snow tyres unless you aren't planning on using the car much.
More important than the rubber is having a sensible approach to driving - smooth and steady is more important thanwhat your rims are wearing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you are driving to a resort on well used roads that aren't steep and will be cleared by snow ploughs you will probably get to the alps and back on summer tyres without too much of a problem (if you have chains as a back up). If you hit blizzard conditions you will be the first to need snow chains or be stranded.
If you can't justify winter tyres try to at least get all-season tyres next time you change your tyres.
Even if you have a 4WD, without winter tyres on steeper roads with packed snow / ice you aren't going to get far. A 2WD car with winter tyres will normally get further than a 4WD with summer tyres in such conditions. What goes up must come down and traction is important on the descent too.
If you brake going into a corner and only have winter tyres on the front wheels you are likely to lose traction at the back and spin. If you have winter tyres only on the rear driven wheels then the car is likely to go straight on into the path of something else coming down the hill.
Driving without winter tyres in Austria is akin to driving in the UK on bald tyres (i.e. you are at a disadvantage to most of the cars around you). This isn't just about cost it's about safety and not just yours either.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 13-12-06 11:15; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would have thought a pair of chains was the best investment for UK based skiers, if you have a common tire size and are travelling down before mid-February just buy them en-route in France. I only use snow tires because I'm driving every day in the Alps (and I carry chains in the boot for the odd occassion that snow tires are not enough). The big problem around here (in the French Alps) is that most people don't change their tires so you can end up blocked by other drivers when the roads are busy.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 13-12-06 14:47; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
More important than the rubber is having a sensible approach to driving - smooth and steady is more important thanwhat your rims are wearing.
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True in that it will probably keep you on the road, but come to the first hill and you won't get up it and possiblly the first hill you go down you may reach the bottom in rather less control than you would wish. For example last year driving into Aberdeen in a couple of inches of fresh snow. I get to a junction (Danestone roundabout by Tescos) where the road I' m on has a very very slight uphill onto the roundabout. Most cars were having great problems with spinning wheels, particularly if they had to stop part way up, even a 4x4 soft roader had problems. My skoda fitted with all season tyres on the drive wheels had no problems at all.
Note I've always fitted snow tyres to at least the drive wheels of my cars since I have moved to scotland, but have never driven my car to the alps - I fit snow tyres because I want to drive safely and quickly to work in cold, snowy and icy conditions and to the Clash, Glenshee, lecht or Cairngorm when there is skiing. I reckon its money well spent!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dave Horsley,
Don't disagree - the smooth & steady approch doesn't necessarily work when other drivers stop in front of you but with a pair of snows on the front the worst I ever had could be solved by sitting a person on each front wing. From the winter driving I've done (almost exclusively in 2wd) the worst situations are when you get a bit cocky & lay some power down where you shouldn't.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
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f you regularly drive in an area with snow you should fit snow tyres
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Agreed, but is one or two weeks a year classed as regular? |
Possibly, but I think the poster meant 'frequently'.
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Like everything else the provision one makes for a winter journey is to mitigate the risk of loss of traction from the vehicle.
Better provision will cover a wider range of risks. Mixing two winter tyres with two ordinary tyres reprents a half way house. I think the saftey risk isn't that high but I wouldn't try it myself.
I believe the safety will become an issue if one of the tyre has to be replaced for whatever the reason and it isn't the same type that comes off the car. I wouldn't like to brake hard on a snowor wet ground to test how unsymmetrical the traction could be.
I think everybody has his/her own experience and so 2WD cars are alright if you are careful, snow tyres are a waste of money, carrying a set of snow chains may be useless if you are stuck in a jam without room to fit them, etc etc...
At the end of the day it is the winter condition that one has to face up to and so the quality/quantity of equipment will govern the safe and trouble free passage.
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| saikee wrote: |
| I believe the safety will become an issue if one of the tyre has to be replaced for whatever the reason and it isn't the same type that comes off the car. I wouldn't like to brake hard on a snowor wet ground to test how unsymmetrical the traction could be. |
And that's why, if you fit winter or snow specific tyres it's all five or none. I've a set for the rollerskate and the hardest thing was finding a set of steel wheels for it. Seems the breakers send them straight to the 2nd user tyre retailers who bung them straight to the steel scrap industry. Eventually got them by leaving a note with the local alloy wheelspecialist who gave me a call when a Gary-Boy came in for some overpriced garish tat for his Fiat . . . the steel wheels were less than half the weight of the alloys the muppet jammed in his wheel-wells 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| saikee wrote: |
| I believe the safety will become an issue if one of the tyre has to be replaced for whatever the reason and it isn't the same type that comes off the car. I wouldn't like to brake hard on a snowor wet ground to test how unsymmetrical the traction could be. |
And that's why, if you fit winter or snow specific tyres it's all five or none. |
You are lucky to have a car that has a full size spare. Many modern cars do not. I believe the regs in France are that all 4 tires have to be the same - same make, same model. I do see a lot of cars with only snow tires on the front though during the winter. I used to do the same and I think it works ok if you have a small fwd car.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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davidof, No, it has a spacesaver as normal but the well for it (as most are) is designed for a standard wheel and tyre. Cars are designed for the lowest spec so the fancy Audi with huge alloys and a space-saver will be able to carry a standard VAG 14" steel wheel and snow tyre. You only have to look out for brake calliper clearances on the more awesome engined monsters but finding snow tyres with the legal fitment rating for these animals is another ball game altogether 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just for info, don't want to get involved in any arguements but, we have a rear wheel drive merc estate with wintertracs on 4 steel wheels (plus spare) for the winter. They have meant we have not had to fit chains when majority did, and a rear wheel drive car with no slip diffs etc has got up things it should not have and more importantly down things it should not have, seeing a number of uk 4x4 stuck. The tyres are miles better in the wet than my summer tyres, supposed to be better than summer tyres under 7 degrees centrigrade due to materials in construction, we leave then on here all winter as they are better in the wet. We have used them coming back from Val thorens in may, and it was warm on the way back and the car moves around more and is not as stable on long fast corners on the autoroute when compared to the summer tyres, in a performance car this would be an issue.
Overall it is a safety issue, in conditions where there is slush, then a bit of compact snow, then tarmac, taking chains on and off is a pain, they also damage things if used with no snow about, i would rather have winter tyres, but then people may rather have in car dvd, a fancy stereo. Take your choice I know what i would choose. (ps. before people state that you can't tell the difference between tyres, i circuit race a sports car in the summer..............)
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 13-12-06 15:28; edited 1 time in total
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| Masque wrote: |
| davidof, No, it has a spacesaver as normal but the well for it (as most are) is designed for a standard wheel and tyre. Cars are designed for the lowest spec so the fancy Audi with huge alloys and a space-saver will be able to carry a standard VAG 14" steel wheel and snow tyre. You only have to look out for brake calliper clearances on the more awesome engined monsters but finding snow tyres with the legal fitment rating for these animals is another ball game altogether |
thanks for that useful information, I will take another look at my cars.
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You know it makes sense.
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CEM, I can see no justification for snow tyres for the odd trip to the alps. If you're unlucky (or lucky) enough to be arriving or leaving during a snowstorm, then chains should be enough and more useful and cheaper and more transferable. I've never had either (well I once had snow tyres on the driven axel of the Chevvy Nova), and have only once failed to get up the mountain. that's in a big auto rear wheel drive car with fairly fat tyres anyway. Most access roads have so much salt poured on them that they almost never freeze!! If you're driving all winter in the alps then it makes it worth while, and I was going to get them this year - but not with the gearbox saga! I do have chains.
davidof, I thought they only had to be the same on the same axel. could easily be wrong though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ok to throw another view in the mix:
(1) snow tyres on the two front drive wheels - worth it in saved time and annoyance factor, especially if it snows a lot (I'm not talking about 4x4 cars)
(2) chains - if you have snow tyres, you're probably 95% less likely to have to use them. That alone is enough reason to get snow tyres!
(3) snow tyres on all wheels - better than on two only but the improvement is much less than from no snow tyres to two (though the rear end of the car can get erratic)
Alastair, why don't you drive on slicks in the UK? I mean, you'd save money on the fuel, you could drive faster when the road is dry, and a good driver should be able to deal with rain, aquaplaning etc - just drive slower!
I had an Audi Quattro in Romania, and one winter I realised that it was worse on snowy roads with all-weather tyres than my previous Daewoo with snow tyres on the front wheels.
And the other thing is - in a country where so many drivers are interested in / obsessed with driving performance and handling, why would you forego all performance as soon as the road is wet and cold, let alone snowy?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I don't have chains for Scotland - as I've never found any advantage to them. Police in Scotland won't let you up the hill to the lecht (for example) if you have chains but not if you don't. (Some times they'll let 4x4 up but not 2wd drives like me fully equiped with snow tyres - and from past experience I'm likely to have fewer problems than some summer tyre shod 4X4s). Roads are more likely to be closed by big drifts that they can't keep ploughed out and neither snow tyres or chains will help there.
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brian
brian
Guest
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| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| I don't have chains for Scotland - as I've never found any advantage to them. Police in Scotland won't let you up the hill to the lecht (for example) if you have chains but not if you don't. |
For chains to work, they need to leave compacted snow on the road. They don't do this in Scotland, even over the Lecht, it's salt plus ploughing right down to the road surface.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| CEM wrote: |
i am planning to drive out to the alps once possibly twice this winter..... a friend who does the same [a couple of times more maybe] has put snow tyres on his car, he puts 2 snow tyres on the driving wheels and leaves normal tyres on the back, he claims it has never caused him a problem
what are the views........
2 tyres is good
you need all 4
you're wasting time and money
obviously chains to be carried as well |
I drove front-wheel drive a VW trasporter van until Feburuary. I recommend snowyres all-round. Yes, snow tryes wear faster but the treads are bigger so they still last a long time...I reckon I did >25K on mine over 3 seasons and they're still legal. I NEVER EVER had to put chains on...even in blizzards or re-frozen snow/ice on steep hills. I drove to Northern Finland in December...22 hours on snow from southern Sweden...no problems. I drove up re-frozen steep roads that had been running water the previous day. I parked with confidence on hills covered in blue ice. They are worth the money.
I would go for all 4, leave them on for the winter then swap. The vehicle will handle a bit "softer" on dry roads bet they're also better in the wet. The confidence you gain is fantastic. No need to get cold and miserable putting on chains...often by the time you decide to put chains on...you're jammed up against a snow drift! Also, snow tyres give you better grip whether your expecting to need it or not (eg. black ice).
That's my advice...and it comes from many years of experience and rescuing (or laughing at) many pals that didn't heed it!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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brian,
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For chains to work, they need to leave compacted snow on the road. They don't do this in Scotland, even over the Lecht, it's salt plus ploughing right down to the road surface.
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Yes I know - it was a dig at the system of opening roads in Scotland - like up to the ski areas where they plogh it out, grit it and then wait for it to melt to the black before opening it If they just ploughed it out gritted and then allowed appropriatly shod cars up - the roads would be open sooner (and down to the black sooner due to the traffic). It'l never happen - too few people have snow/ winter tyres on their cars here in Scotland.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DrBullet, I agree with all you have said.
I think the idea of putting 2 winter tyres on the front of a front wheel drive car is to be honest rather dangerous for the average driver. So you end up with an oversteering front wheel drive car. Lots of grip at the front and very little at the rear will result in end swapping unless you are used to an oversteering front wheel drive. Considering most production car are designed to understeer, so drivers will be used to this feeling perhaps this may not be wise. One of the motoring tv progams did an interesting wet track test on this using new tyres on the front and worn on the rear resulting in end swapping in fwd cars.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I think the idea of putting 2 winter tyres on the front of a front wheel drive car is to be honest rather dangerous for the average driver. So you end up with an oversteering front wheel drive car.
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I've done that for 10 years - this is the first year I've gone for snow tyres all round (except the spare). In those ten years I've only lost the back end unexpectedly once (ended up in the ditch  ) and that was more due to driving too fast for the conditions.
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| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| It'l never happen - too few people have snow/ winter tyres on their cars here in Scotland. |
Do you think that's a bit chicken & egg?
If they announced that snow tyre equipped cars would be allowed up to the resorts but summer-shod ones will have to wait, would that trigger Scottish skiers into buying winter rubber?
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OK, can I have my say? This idea that snow tyres are a waste of money, may I point out that whilst you are wearing out you snow tyres your summer tyres are costing you nothing tucked away somewhere nice and cosy! So all that you have done is brought forward your next tyre purchase. From 20 plus seasons experience in FWD cars and just snow tyres on the driving wheels I can say that it is much better than summer tyres and not the disaster that some seem to predict. I might add that for the 10 seasons when I had RWD cars I had snow tyres all round, some of which were studded. I used to rally for a living (poorly ) and had my own studding gun. Just think about the cost of a repair to a wing that you could prang on a snow bank, compared to the cost of snow tyres!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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is there an echo !
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I hit the back button and it posted a second time  edit button won't let me delete
Edit....Thanks whoever did that
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FAQ
(Plus the cost of having them swapped for your summer tyres each season!)
