 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
OK folks, its my thread - I was out last night, but let's see if we can iron things out a little.
OK, last question first: Trolling - taken from: http://www.newmediamusings.com/blog/amusing/index.html
Trolling is making a deliberately inflammatory remark, one that you know perfectly well is baloney, just to get a rise out of other people. Trolling is an art. Trolling works just fine for an audience of one (say, a journalist), but of course the real fun is trolling on public bulletin boards where you can get dozens of people screaming at you simultaneously. Comments on religion, politics or Mac-vs.-Windows are always good bets. The talented troll sits back to enjoy the fireworks with a smirk, and never, ever responds to the responses.
There's a similar definition on the ebay web boards, where I have to say it is rife - I visited there once and never returned because it resulted in boards with such bad feelings.
Personally I wouldn't say Whitegold is that guilty of trolling - he/she has been big enough to come back several times to defend his viewpoint.
(still can't get the hang of getting the names in bold text - sorry)
Something I was once taught on a management course is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we should do everyone the decency of listening to their opinion especially when supported by their reasoning and try to see their view point and why they might feel that way. That is not to say we have to agree with it, but we would expect them to do us the same decency. I don't think anyone here is guilty of not affording this decency to the other postees. I appreciate EVERY one that has been decent enough to give me their viewpoint, the one thing I can say is that everyone of you has had my best interests at heart and I DO appreciate that.
Here endedeth the lesson in diplomacy 
So, what's my uptake on the viewpoints?
Well lets do the facts.
1. I am not proud - I am 37 and not in the first flush of youth, nor as fit as I want to be though I will make an effort before holiday next Feb
Milton Keynes is around 65 miles away, with the A12 and more to the point the M25 in the way. 2am in the morning and keeping it legal, yes easy done in around 1.5 hrs. At the times when I could manage MK is a non starter - no-one in this neck of the woods touches the M25 if it can be avoided in the day time. (B.t.w. don't think 'lady driver' here Megamum is a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists and has her test under under her belt). For what I want it for MK is out of bounds for me.
Brentwood, no-one here has given it, as a venue, a bad review, except in the guise of plastic generally, and it is within my grasp as a venue.
I grasp that is will feel 'slower' than real snow, also that I will have to work harder to make the ski's cut into it, your technique has to be better and.....oh yes, and it's not very forgiving if you take a tumble on it. However, most have said that good instruction can reduce the 'falling over' aspect and that dry slope instructors do realise the difference between their surface and the real thing and will be able to relate the two together for me.
Cost wise, I have been quoted £40 for a private lesson (+£20 for each additional person).
I think the best thing to do is probably to try it - one session should give me a flavour of the surface, and then the old Megamum common sense should be able to work out if more of the same is liable to help or hinder me. What I might do is try it out myself before involving my 7 yr old. She had 3 full morning sessions at ski school - far more instruction than me and will build on this in Feb if she doesn't get to the dry slope before hand.
How does this sound? |
Megamum -- nice posting.
I stand by my comments.
Some inidignant responses indicate that the truth may hurt some.
MK is easily doable in 1.5 hrs or less from Essex on a Sun morning. The roads are plenty clear most times, even the M25 and M1.
Dryslopes are rubbish. They offer a low-quality product. They are not suitable for adult beginners.
Good luck, whatever you choose.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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TallTone, Look on the bright side: At least you and I will have snow 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
MK is easily doable in 1.5 hrs or less from Essex on a Sun morning. The roads are plenty clear most times, even the M25 and M1.
Dryslopes are rubbish. They offer a low-quality product. They are not suitable for adult beginners.
Good luck, whatever you choose. |
Hmmm, not sure if MK is getting crowds like Tamworth at the moment but certainly during the day at weekends, and I'd guess other peak times, time spent on the slope is more a matter of dodging the swarming/falling hordes than practicing skiing.
Gloucester dry slope in contrast is large enough and uncrowded enough to be able to ski with less chance of having a collission if you're caught in an unguarded moment (or hemmed in by 3/4 wobbling dudes), it also seems to attract a mix of more season skiiers and boarders rather than absolute beginners which IMHO helps a bit too.
So, although I prefer snow I'm sorely tempted to leave it for a month or two until the once a year holiday crowd have done their thing and concentrate on technique and having a good crowd free time on plastic in between being on the real thing in the mountains.
Not sure if that helps Megamum but I guess I'm saying it's not black and white so take all advice with a pinch of salt and see what suits you.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Whitegold, Did you not read the quote that you posted by Megamum? She said
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| At the times when I could manage MK is a non starter |
a 3-4 hour drive doesn't work for her yet you still persist in putting her off dryslope practice.
I am not indignant, but continuing to try to put someone off her only reasonable means of getting out and practicing is not helpful at all. I continue to agree with you that artificial snow is a better surface to learn on but that doesnt mean that plastic should be avoided at all costs. We get your point that you personally dont like dryslopes, but do you only see the world in only black and white? Artificial snow has its drawbacks as well, should we put people off skiing in the snow domes because they are a lower quality experience when compared to perfect conditions in the Mountains, of course not.
How in the world you can justify saying
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| Dryslopes are rubbish. They offer a low-quality product. They are not suitable for adult beginners |
is beyond me when there are loads of dry slopes in the UK that are used daily by adult beginners, racers, intermediates and ever type of skier out there.
I am not sure about your experience and abilities but putting off beginners who are trying to learn and prepare is a silly thing to do. Are you a Ski Instructor that has dry slope teaching experience? Numerous experienced instructors have argued against your point of view in this thread but you take that as people having hurt feelings? very strange....
I had said we should agree to disagree in a previous post but i hope early stage skiers reading this thread will take your advice for what it is worth.
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Hi TallTone, (Hey, I've got the BOLD bit to work! - Picked up the addy from the LH side as instructed). Unfortunatley I won't be able to make the 7th though I really appreciate the offer. I work Mon-Thurs (and have busy Fridays) and don't get so much holiday - which I'm saving up for Spring Half Term and the trip to the real Mountains and snow - we had 80cm last year until it rained on Thrusday. The evening of that night is the Works Crimble do.
scottp, I might well pp you new year and arrange to meet up at Brentwood - thanks very much for the for the offer.
Whitegold, I really don't fancy the run around the M25 when its busy, and wouldn't be able to go to MK when the roads were light in traffic - maybe I'll give it a try if I'm ever in the direction for any reason. I'll probably try Brentwood and hopefully meet with scottp, in the New Year. However, I will go with an open mind and will be expecting it to be different to real snow. I'll also make sure I wear strong clothing and robust gloves. I will also make sure I post back here once I've been so that everyone can see what I thought.
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TallTone, and others - December is going to be very hectic here - I turned the calendar today and winced at the number of days that already have something written against them. However, January is vastly less booked up and it would be great to meet up somewhere and do something then. I read in the general areas here that things are friendlier if we are all on first name terms. I won't change Megamum now, but in case you are all wondering I'm a Julia, but answer to Julie (my preference), Oi you!, hey there!, my computers not working can you fix it? and others.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, is fine IMHO. Friendliness is in what you post, not in what you call yourself 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, You could be known as Julie megamum!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Or Megamum julie
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Or Megajuliemum - I like that one!
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, PM me when you have a date in mind. Assuming I don't break anything, I expect I'll want to go back  I'll also take my (nine-year-old) son next time if I get on well enough, though not at that time of the evening...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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all, not to continue to whine about snow vs. dryslopes but i just got home from the MK snowdome and although had a great day with three kids and one beginner adult the 3 and 1/2 hour drive tonight was a real drag, M1 and M25 a nightmare...........
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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feefee, glad to hear that you were able to get accustomed to the equipment as that has been my experience and i think a real benefit of dry slope lessons for complete beginners.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| crosbie wrote: |
| I worked out once that it was actually cheaper to fly out to a glacier for a week that it would have been to spend 6 hours a day on a dry slope. |
It's certainly cheaper to do a one day ski trip to the mountains than to pay for 5 hours at the hourly rate at MK.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As someone who learnt to ski and now coaches on a dryslope, I have to say that I believe they are an excellent learning ground for skiers of all levels. With regular coaching skiers as young as 6 or 7 can be pretty good skiers within a year, and I've skied with plenty on their first trips to the mountains that are completely comfortable with anything from icy blacks to whiteouts off piste.
Adults seem to be more tentative about skiing on the dryslope, but I've certainly seen a lot worse injuries and damage to skis on the snow. In five years training and coaching with a race club I've only seen 2 or 3 minor broken bones or concussions, and we have skiers aged from 6 to 60, from basic snowploughers to british development team skiers. I can't deny that skiing on snow is essential for any skier aiming high, but spending the rest of the year on a dryslope is the best alternative. Snowdomes are okay for beginners, but don't really have much to challenge anyone else.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
It's certainly cheaper to do a one day ski trip to the mountains than to pay for 5 hours at the hourly rate at MK.
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slikedges, that's really peculiar innit? It's sort of like one of those confucian paradoxes "When you're good enough to slalom several turns down this 100' dry ski slope, it will be time for you to leave - you willl then also understand why you will never return"
If you were going to recommend how best to learn to a complete snow virgin, which would you pick out of a weekend away:
1) 150 miles away in the UK for two nights in a hotel near a dry ski slope learning centre.
2) 250 miles away in the UK for two nights in a hotel near an artifical snowdome based learning centre.
3) 650 miles away in France for two nights in a hotel near a good glacier/real snow piste.
Let's say they were all the same price, and you'd end up with the same amount of tuition and time on the slopes.
Tons of other issues, but I wonder if there's a sort of mental barrier to leaving the safety of good ol blighty to learn in the 'deep end'?
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| Quote: |
Tons of other issues, but I wonder if there's a sort of mental barrier to leaving the safety of good ol blighty to learn in the 'deep end'?
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I think a lot of people like to be prepared before they go. Possibly they are going as part of a group who can already ski and they don't want to be left out.
24 years ago I learnt to ski on a dry slope and I found it a great help once I was on snow. I then had further lessons over the years in resort. Dry slopes are a good alternative if you don't have the real thing.
The dry slopes here in Glasgow are doing a bomb in lessons compared to x-scape which is less than 15 mins drive from each of them.
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Yup, don't get me wrong Sage, I learnt on a dry slope myself. It was very convenient being able to drive to my local Borowski slope in Newhaven (7 miles away from my Lewes home) every Thursday evening for a lesson.
But, if someone had told me "Psst. Mate. Did you know that you could get better and cheaper tuition for your trip in March if you simply flew out to Val Thorens for a week in December?", I wonder if I would have been tempted? Even assuming I had enough leave.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Tres Drole
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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crosbie, as one of the dry-slope advocates here, if those were the only three choices possible I'd take 3) every time (although on environmental grounds I'd be guilty about not taking 1) ), and I think all the other advocates would too. But that's not the choice for most people who have regular jobs to fund their "habit". The choice is then actually:
4) 1 or 2 weeks in the alps in late winter/early spring + drive to my local dry slope (7[or maybe 27] miles away from home) every Thursday evening for a lesson
5) 1 or 2 weeks in the alps in late winter/early spring + drive to snowdome (70-127 miles away from home) occasionally to get fleeced for a lesson
6) 1 or 2 weeks in the alps in late winter/early spring +...er.....drooling over ski mags for the remaining 50/1 weeks of the year.
In that case take 4)
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You know it makes sense.
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crosbie, As an instructor who's worked on both mediums I think it's helpful for peeps to have had a course on dry before coming for their first snow holiday. The quality of instruction on the dry slopes is often very high, but I do say a course - not just one lesson. So, if they can go up the lift and do ploughs and snowplough turns (even though they have to adapt a bit to start with), they've "missed" the first two days of beginner ski school. therefore, a 6 hour course on a plastic slope gets you (IMO) two days on snow. this means that you are more likely to be able to ski a bit around the mountain before the end of the week, more likely to be able to have fun with your friends in the first week, and more likely to want to come again.
Rightly or wrongly there are (sadly) a number of instructors out in the alps who really don't care enough about giving beginners the right start in skiing. So many people give up after 3 or 4 days, and never go again. It's nearly always because they're pushed too hard, too fast in the first couple of days. Therefore, and while agreeing that Dendix is not the world's best surface to ski on, I really think it's an advantage to have done that course on the plastic. Most beginners just book their lessons with the TO, not understanding the difference a ski school/instructor can make to their learning curve and enjoyment.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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crosbie, and I agree with easiski,
Any person who has completed 4-6 hours on plastic before putting skis on snow will gain about 2 days, after first adjusting to the different friction etc. Personally I would much rather teach beginners (on snow) who have had previous dry slope experience.
I do understand a course of lessons on plastic for arguments sake £100 is much cheaper than a week on snow with lessons.
I am a regular plastic skier, not much snow in Surrey, many years since Box Hill was skiable, so my answers will always be biased towards plastic.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, I have an open mind as to which is best to start on (only having learnt to ski once - unlike instructors who've seen it hundreds of times). I'm interested to know if there's a definitive answer.
I'd agree a 1-to-1 session only an hour's drive away - in the knowledge that there's little loss in calling it a day - could be most relaxing, especially given an instructor with the same dialect, let alone the same language.
A lot of beginners will be pushed hard in the alps probably because so many of them are trying to get a crash course to catch up with their pals by the end of the week - or get further up the mountain and at least out of the nursery zone.
Perhaps there are very few punters who could say "I'm only here this week to learn - I'm not here for the food or booze, nor to admire the view - that's happening NEXT week!"
So, perhaps in an ideal world, there would be alpine resorts catering for snow virgins, with instructors specialising in those critical first few days...
You seem to be suggesting that it isn't an ideal world and that despite a fake surface being inferior, it's not the biggest factor in deciding where to learn to ski.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dunk, but wouldn't alpine ski instructors similarly say "I much prefer teaching beginners who have already had at least two days tuition on snow"?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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crosbie, probably but not all
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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crosbie, What I really meant was that in a very controlled enviroment (dry slope) the initial introduction to the ski equipment etc is much easier. The fun of watching first time beginners walk out of a hire shop struggling to carry skis and poles.
Plastic lessons allow people to get used to the equipment. I am sure many instructors here will tell the stories of customers with boots on wrong feet, different sized boots and more.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dunk, now I'm wondering if you mean that the dry slope exaggerates some aspects of edge control that beginners can fail to pick up on the more forgiving real stuff?
Are two day dry-slopers in a better position for having their technique refined and perfected than two day snow-slopers?
Or is it simply that they're different pupils - not necessarily better or worse?
I was most disappointed to discover that the snowplough I'd spent so long mastering on the dry slope is pretty lousy and soon dispensed with - the few times in which you as a beginner (who's accidentally hooked themselves into the fall line) want a stable stop/slow are generally those times in which a snowplough simply won't cut it. Like learning to stick your foot out of a car door to stop it rolling when manouvering at slow speed, totally fails to cut it as a braking system once you turn the engine on and get out of the car park.
If only they'd told me that an icy, skier's-width gulley didn't have bristles that always made the snow plough so effective. 
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Dunk, again, even two days in real ski resorts permit total beginners the chance to familiarise themselves with the equipment so that on the third day they don't look like hippos on stilts.
Could some enterprising weekend-ski tour op come up with the "Learn to ski in a weekend so you don't look like a clown in Klosters, or a tit in Tignes"?
How much for Friday overnight snowtrain out, Saturday learning how to put your boots on, Sunday how to balance with a hangover, Sunday night flight home.
Travel: £100 (mid-Dec)
Accom: £50
H/B: £50
Tuition: £50 (inc. equip & pass)
£250 for a crash ski course?
It would never catch on would it?
Everyone would say they could get a week in Bulgaria for that much... for a family of four.
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crosbie I dont think there are many that would argue against getting a weekend in the alps on snow, over the delights of either plastic or the the fridge, but the question is in order to maximise the benefit for a beginer heading off to the mountains for the first time what is the best way to spend the time before you go.
Its become something of a circuitous argument but its still quicker to nip to the plastic/fridge than go on holiday, and in this day and age (particularly for mums I'm sure) its time that is the most precious commodity. And, in that respect I still think that any time getting used to the kit in the UK is better than paying for a mountain based instructor to watch you struggling with the kit on a far away hill!... bored now  !
Oh and Megamum(julie), what about: A EMAIL JUG MUM, A JAIL 'EM MUG 'UM, or, A JAM GUILE MUM  ???
doh,.... the astute wordsmiths amongst you will realise that I've done the anagrams of Julie mAgamum (that could work?!), I cant be bothered to do another cut and paste so heres the link!:
http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=julie+megamum
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| crosbie wrote: |
A lot of beginners will be pushed hard in the alps probably because so many of them are trying to get a crash course to catch up with their pals by the end of the week - or get further up the mountain and at least out of the nursery zone.
Perhaps there are very few punters who could say "I'm only here this week to learn - I'm not here for the food or booze, nor to admire the view - that's happening NEXT week!"
So, perhaps in an ideal world, there would be alpine resorts catering for snow virgins, with instructors specialising in those critical first few days...
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I think the reason for peeps being pushed too hard is that the instructors are bored, not the students! If you repeat a straight running exercise (say for example touching your toes and standing back up again), it will be the ONLY 2 times in their life the student has done that - how can they be bored? The instructor, OTOH has done it 10,000 times ...... I always explain to my beginners that it's like the story of the tortoise and the hare - who won the race? If you start like a tortoise for the first 2 or 3 days, by the end of the week, you've won the race and are running away from those stupid hares!! Rushing beginners does seem to be endemic in many of the larger alpine ski schools (the ones who "net" the beginners from the TOs). I can't see the point. It's easy to explain how they're going to learn, what they're going to learn, and where they can expect to be at the end of the week. Most people do actually want to learn properly - just give them the chance. If they've taken a proper course on a dry slope then they've got over the "danger zone" of not being able to plough, and not having their faults corrected because they're in a class of 12 ...
Taught properly with good terrain choice and availability a non-frightened beginner can expect to be narly parallel on a green run by the end of the first week, a frightened beginner can expect to be able to go on a green run and ski from A to B with snowplough turns. Unfortunately many beginners don't get the choice.
In an ideal world all ski teachers would get a good variety of levels to teach - variety is the spice of life. One level quickly becomes boring, regardless of how high or low on the scale it is. (At least that's my take on it). beginners are great to teach, but not all the time ....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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crosbie,
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Good thing about learning to snowboard is you can be sitting in the middle of a black by the second day.
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I just wish a few of you would progress.
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FAQ
) Care to join us?
took lessons at brentwood dry slope with Steve!! I don't think it helped me to ski as such, but certainly helped with the understanding of skis boots poles etc and the button lift! Once on holiday I think the experience helped, i am now keen to go back to Brentwood just to play!!! If you think it would help then go, we all have different opinions!! 
