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Dry slopes vs. artificial snow slopes

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi Folks

At the moment I'm still not convinced that there is anywhere local that I easily get to for some pre-holiday practice. However, it started me thinking about these dry slopes.

As a someone still well and truely on L plates, but who has only ever skied on real snow on real mountains, would I be better off avoiding these dry slopes, or if I did find there was one I could get to would it be useful to me?

I guess this subject has probably been done before - so apologies if that's the case. I'd settle for a pointer at the right thread.

Cheers
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Difficult one really but I think it's commonly accepted that dry slopes are good for developing your technique because you end flat on your face/back/side if you're technique is a bit scrappy.... maybe that's why I prefer snow whether artificial or real! Laughing

To be honest I'd say give both a go if you can and see what you prefer but depending on when you intend to visit you might find your nearest dry slope is quieter than the artificial snow slopes. Gloucester dry slope had loads of space last Sunday but last time I was at Tamworth, a couple of weeks ago, it was a nightmare avoiding beginners because the slope was so crowded, it was great over the summer though Smile

It may be different in your part of the world so give them a go and see.
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Megamum, I spent years avoiding dry slopes as I heard and was scared off by all the horror stories. Prompted by a few advocates on here, though, I tried it about 18 months ago and have been a regular dry-sloper since.

Things to be aware of. The horror stories do have truth in them in that you can hurt yourself quite badly if you fall: I've had some very nasty bruises and think I actually broke a bone in my hand (without realising it) in a fall while racing a couple of months ago. So if you do go, do be careful - and there is a strong incentive not to fall. Having said that though, I spent the first few months there bouncing down the slope quite frequently with no lasting effects - bruises fade after a week or so, hey ho. As for clothing, different slopes have different rules, but as a good rule of (hopefully intact Wink thumb, wear something hard wearing on your arms and legs (preferably not your poshest new Goretex skisuit) and the strongest old gloves you can find (gardening gloves are occasionally worn Wink ). If you have them, something like skateboarders knee/elbow pads can be a good idea - I now wear shin guards that cover my knees but not all do. Some slopes insist on helmets, but others don't - I now wear one regularly but didn't for the first 9 months I was going.

Having said all that, if you do want to improve though, the surface will definitely make you do so - it's done wonders for me (and I thought I was a moderately reasonable skier before I started). It's like skiing on slow hardpack - you can skid or carve, and grip is there if you know how to find it, but it takes a bit of effort, which is what makes it such a good training surface. I would though strongly advise getting lessons rather than just making it up as you go along - apart from anything else they will make sure you do stuff that will minimise the risk of injury. Our slope has beginners and improvers classes during daytime and evenings, so you should be able to find something to suit.

Depending on where you are in Essex, your closest are likely to be:
Brentwood Park: www.brentwoodskicentre.co.uk
Ipswich: www.suffolkskicentre.co.uk
Bassingbourne (Royston): www.skibass.org
or maybe Welwyn: www.goslingsports.co.uk
All of the above are Dendix, which is the surface I've been talking about above. The only one I've skied on is Brentwood, which was fine, quite long and not too steep (actually lots not too steep for racing). I think Bassingbourne is only open part time, but the others are AFAIK open pretty much full time.

I've only had one session on indoor snow (at MK), and while it's much more like real snow of course, I pretty much hated being indoors while skiing. The slope is about 50% longer than our local dry slope, but it felt much smaller - either because of more stuff around the sides/ends or just because of the enclosed feel. I'd take outdoors on a dry slope over being inside a fridge any day.

Snowdomes are also quite a bit more expensive in general (unless you get something like earlybird midweek time) - so it could mount up if you wanted to go regularly. I think you'll get the most out of going somewhere frequently rather than just a hit every couple of months or so - so I hope you can find somewhere convenient. And the best thing of all - once you get on real snow it will seem SO EASY!!!!!! You'll suddenly find it no effort at all to ski like that goddess you always are in your dreams.
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GrahamN, are you a goddess in your dreams?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
David Murdoch, no, but a few may have made guest appearances from time to time!
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Megamum, don't be put off by GrahamN's injuries, he stretches himself to the limit whenever he skies and falls regularly and spectacularly whatever the surface.

In the days when I only went once per year, I used to have a course of dry slope lessons before my holiday as it served as a warm-up and gave me something to think about and practice when away. I found them helpful in all sorts of ways, fitness, balance, technique etc.

Give it a go. It is a different feel, but not too dissimilar to the real thing. I would suggest that you have a lesson or join a class as it can be very boring skiing the same bit of plastic otherwise.
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Ray Zorro, Embarassed Embarassed

(but I can't really deny it)
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Megamum wrote:
As a someone still well and truely on L plates, but who has only ever skied on real snow on real mountains, would I be better off avoiding these dry slopes, or if I did find there was one I could get to would it be useful to me?


I think it would be useful to you. You should get good instruction, and if the instructor is 'anything like' your chances of falling should be minimised.

Mittens may be an idea instead of gloves (snowboarder styleeeeee) and will keep your fingers safer.

Go and have fun. Madeye-Smiley
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Megamum, don't pay too much attention to GrahamN. He is skiing at the sharp edge. However, his basic points are right.

I have skied on snow for a number of years and whenever I have tried plastic I have hated it - until recently. Indoor snow is much easier, but more expensive.

I started again on a plastic slope in the spring and have been going quite regularly over the summer. No lessons, but mainly with exercises stolen from my duaghter's club. At first I found it quite difficult. Dendix has the ability to find all your worst faults and amplify them. However, after a few weeks I found my skiing was becoming more consistent and the wobbles were becoming more infrequent.

Do try it, do take lessons. Plastic is slower than snow, so the feeling is not quite the same, but if you can ski on plastic, you will certainly do better when you get to the real stuff and will be able to do much more with your holiday.

With clothing all you need to be a little sensible. Just cover up from the neck down as you would on snow. That is, always wear gloves and always wear long sleeves (even in the summer).

Siding with GrahamN for a moment, after a summer of fairly regular plastic skiing I eventually took myself off to a local club and now practice slalom every week. At the moment I feel a bit like a rabbit caught in a set of headlights - all those poles coming at me so fast - but my skiing is already improving beyond what I could expect to achieve any other way and the coaches are very patient with me.
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Megamum, Plastic fantastic - the prices for the snowdomes are out of all proportion. It's not worth the extra money. Much better spend less and go more often. Also Dendix or the newer alternatives will help lots more than skiing on indoor snow. Get a couple of lessons and practise. Very Happy
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and another thing ! Plastic is a much more consistant surface than snow.. this is a good thing for practise. snowHead It's well worth having some lessons... Don't be put off if it feels strange to start with. snowHead
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ski, if you think that plastic is more consistant than snow then you've never skied at Hillend! Very Happy
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Megamum, as a recent convert to plastic, I'd say go for it!
I've spent fortunes travelling to and from, and on entry fees for snow domes. My local dry slope, about 1/2hr away, is powder pac and horrifically difficult to move on. I felt myself going backwards (almost literally) in my learning, and combined with an instructor who was telling me outrageous things, I told myself never again would I try plastic.
Until a week and a half ago snowHead
I paid a visit to Bowles, my local dendix slope and absolutly loved it! Spent about 1/2 hr settling into the feeling of it the first time. I was back again yesterday and that 1/2hr was reduced significantly...
I'm not saying that I'd never go back to a snow dome - in fact homphomp and I are meeting at Milton Keynes with some other snowHead 's for a ski and lunch on the 10th December (fancy meeting up?) but they'll certanly be taking a lot less of my hard earned pennies in the future!
Although dendix is blatantly not the real thing, it's one heck of a good substitute for those of us who aren't lucky enough to live near the snow!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
John Scott,

Quote:

if you think that plastic is more consistant than snow then you've never skied at Hillend!



I have ! Is the 'face' still there ?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
So I'm obviously not the only one that skis like a godess in my day-dreams. I can execute perfect turns, really flex and lean into it, speed down the hill with all the confidence in world and execute those neat parallel stops when I want to. If only........

Still, I've been inspired and I've phoned Brentwood ski centre (I didn't realise there was one there). Brentwood's about 25 miles away. I'm going to give them a call in December and book a couple of private lessons for my 7 year old daughter and myself to have a couple of weeks or so before holiday next year (1/2 term week in Feb). I don't think I can run to many more than that, but maybe a couple of hours of private tuition on the plastic and some more private lessons once I get to the snow and lots of practice once there will see me make more progress. I think this year my goal is going to be getting the confidence the let the skis run. If I could get this I think there will be no stopping me.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum, Great stuff ! If you can - have seperate lessons from your daughter..... 7 yr olds and nnnnsomethings snowHead learn in different ways wink
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Megamum, ask to talk to Sergio (owner) or Steven (son) at Brentwood and explain what it is you are trying to get from the sessions. They will be able to hook you up with the right instructor. Thursday night is club night and a bit busy and weekends are now really full with children

I had my daughter do a course there before she went out the first time on proper snow and it really helped her. The main thing for me was that she got comfortable with carrying skis, putting gear on in a warm dry environment. We had no problems then once we got out to the mountains as she was really familiar with everything. I see a lot of first time children get frustrated with the basics during there first time at a resort and dont enjoy it.

i agree with ski, try to seperate yourself if possible..... and take as many lessons as you can
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'd definitely drive further for an indoor snow slope than for a dry slope but not a massive amount further. Dry slopes are fine once you're used to them. Significant injuries aren't that common imho. For ambience outdoors is generally nicer than indoors, but in the end snow is snow. I know people in Essex and even further East who go to MK regularly, but I know if I were them I'd go to my local dry.
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slikedges, wow! That far Shocked
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Michelle, I know someone who lives in Romford who used to go weekly and someone who lives in Colchester who goes fortnightly. 2 part-time instructors there live in Reading and are at MK at least a couple of times a week. Madeye-Smiley
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Megamum wrote:
Hi Folks

At the moment I'm still not convinced that there is anywhere local that I easily get to for some pre-holiday practice. However, it started me thinking about these dry slopes.

As a someone still well and truely on L plates, but who has only ever skied on real snow on real mountains, would I be better off avoiding these dry slopes, or if I did find there was one I could get to would it be useful to me?

I guess this subject has probably been done before - so apologies if that's the case. I'd settle for a pointer at the right thread.

Cheers


Beginners should avoid dryslopes at all costs. Skiing is hard enough already. Don't make it even tougher by practicing on an upturned toothbrush. Use dryslopes later, when you are higher up the experience curve.

Go to a indoor slope wherever possible. They are easier. Far more enjoyable. Try Milton Keynes XScape early on a Sun morning -- it should only be an hour or so from Essex in light traffic.
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I've a (slightly) crazy dryslope question:

Is there anyone who has tried "waxless" cross country or back country skis on a dryslope surface, if so:
- how well did it work?
- which surface was it?
- did the skis have a raised scale structure?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
comprex, no, but I have skinned up a Dendix slope with no problem.
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We have skied on the old diamond shape upturned scrubbing brushes (is that Dendix?) in the past, most recently at Southampton, and always enjoyed it, even though it's not the real thing. Daughter tried new stuff the other day (Snowflex?) and described it as like "ski-ing on a J-cloth". She didn't like it at all (but she was snowboarding, and has only done a coupla days on snow) but having read all the comments above, and thought about it again, I think we might have a go at Southampton's over 50s sessions, which sound like good value. I think Southampton is still all scrubbing brushes.... We had lessons on dry slopes in the past, and definitely found them beneficial. whether beginners should do it or not depends on their attitude, I think. We were very keen, and even did some lessons on the crappest dry slope in the world, somewhere in the old Ayrshire coalfield, where there wasn't even a lift (did wonders for the leg muscles, had to walk back up the side of the track, carrying skis). We fell, and it does tend to hurt, and we also got extremely muddy, but it really didn't matter. But I certainly wouldn't take a beginner, or near beginner, to a dry slope if I thought they were a bit ambivalent about ski-ing or if they weren't fairly resilient (ski-ing in a light drizzle and an old anorak and gardening gloves just isn't like swishing round in the snow and dropping in for a vin chaud). But if you are keen, and resilient, and want to make the most of a week's holiday, go for it.
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Whitegold, What a load of tosh.
Dry slopes are better to learn on. When you ski very well you need to adapt your tecnique to use them.

Learn on plastic

Ski on snow
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Dunk, get hurt on plastic have fun on snow
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
scottp, hurt how? you fall on ice it hurts? skid burns maybe. I have done much more damage to myself on snow... far higher speeds..
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Dunk, What a load of tosh.

My experieces of customers who learnt on dry slopes, and then transferring onto artificial snow or mountain are:

1. Ineffective plough, you don't need quite a good one to slow you down on plastic
2. Ineffective speed control, again, the friction takes over on plastic
3. Plough turning primarily done by pressure control, rather than foot rotation because of the friction
4. Heel pushes easily developed, because this is easier than foot rotation, because of the friction
5. etc

When we take students on snow the first time having learnt on plastic we always have to downgrade them by one level as they are not used to the decreased friction. We then normally have to work on their plough and turning in getting them more effective.

However, students that have spent around 6 or more hours on dry slope then transferring onto snow cope better, but still require loads of adjustment.

So my advice is that if you are learning on plastic, stay on it for at least 6 hours, and get a few more reacreational hours in before getting onto snow.
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So I started off with 2 misconceptions here didn't I?

1) This subject had probably been done before and sorted out
2) In a similar vein....that there would be a clear cut answer

So I guess I need to know how much of a beginner am I?

So experience:

About 10 years ago I had a couple of week long holidays on a real mountains - long skis, no lessons, never got further than the kinderlift, probably spent more time drinking coffee. but did learn to snow plough and work out that I could get from left to right doing it.

This year went back to the mountains (kids were now old enough). 3 out of 5 days on skis (it rained on Thursday, on Friday it was the kids day). Spent those 3 days 100% on ski's. Got in 3 x 1Hr private lessons, by the end of the week could 'get down' (tried 'do' - wrong word) the easy blue run on the button lift. This involved using the whole width of the run, doing a parallel ski across the hill at a shallow angle to the slope, and provided I didn't end up on a bit that was a) too icy, or b) too steep, I was just finding that a snow plough turn around a pole plant was occasionally becoming a parallel turn (usually when I stopped! concentrating on what I was doing) and I was just starting a gentle parallel stop. At this point I'm still not keen on on going faster than I know I can control (so its still very slow).

Plastic? Never skied on the stuff!

So, given the difference in opinion so far, am I liable to benefit from lessons on plastic at this stage of my 'education' or just undo all the good that's been done?

B.t.w. I think I'm probably the resilient type - spend most of my life in mud, wellies, anoraks and gardening gloves!
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Megamum,
Personal opinion is that if you get decent quality lessons on any surface it is only likely to do your skiing good.

I suspect the main place where people agree or disagree is how enjoyable plastic is. Personally what plastic skiing I have done was at hillend quite a few years ago but I never had any lessons there so doubt I actually got much benefit. So if you can get a few lessons with a little practice to augment it you should benefit. snowHead snowHead
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum,

Quote:

get decent quality lessons


From your posts, I reckon that Brentwood is the place to go for you. snowHead
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Dunk, I am having troubel typing right now with a sprained thumb injured wednesday on the dry slope. got it caught in the brushes after a very slow fall. Evil or Very Mad

IMHO it hurts a lot more when you fall on the brushes. you get easily bruised and i know loads of people that have had fingers and thumbs sprained. Much more so than on piste.
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veeeight, Interesting comments, I concure through observing the way the kids ski on the dry slope ties in with your comments.

I also agree that you need to do a course of several lessons on plastic to get real benefit before going out. One slight disagreement is that i believe total beginners benefit from even one or two sessions in that they learn the basics of how to carry skis, put on boots, skis etc in a warm, dry environment. I have seen lots of children get very frustrated on the mountain and get cold and miserable because they struggled with their gear.

I am doing a BASI 3 this year and need to do my "hours" at the dry slope. do you have any links or tips on the differences that you mention between dry and real. I would be grateful for anything you could PM me.....
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Dunk wrote:
Whitegold, What a load of tosh.
Dry slopes are better to learn on. When you ski very well you need to adapt your tecnique to use them.

Learn on plastic

Ski on snow


This is outdated nonsense. Time to change your faux-macho mindset. Dryslopes are unsuitable for beginners. They are awkward to ski, and painful to fall on. Dryslopes are outdoors, where the weather is cold, wet or windy at least 80% of the time. They offer a miserable experience. Anything that deters or slows the progress of a beginner is a barrier-to-entry. Whenever you introduce a barrier-to-entry to any new activity, people simply give up or switch to something else. If you are a newstarter reading this, then steer well clear of dryslopes until you are higher up the experience curve.
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Megamum wrote:


So, given the difference in opinion so far, am I liable to benefit from lessons on plastic at this stage of my 'education' or just undo all the good that's been done?

B.t.w. I think I'm probably the resilient type - spend most of my life in mud, wellies, anoraks and gardening gloves!



You are likely to get hacked off because dryslopes are so rubbish. Awkward to ski, painful to fall on. Even those in favor of artificial admit they are harder to use. In short, dryslopes suck.

I am guessing from your nickname and postings that you are at least in your late 20s or 30s? If so, your physical body will have peaked and your natural ability to learn will be in decline (same goes for everyone). Therefore, you need to make the learning curve as SIMPLE, EASY and QUICK as possible. The best way to achieve this is on outdoor-natural or indoor-manmade snow. Not some cheap plastic matting that makes the sport roughly twice as hard to learn.

Good luck.
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Whitegold is quite clearly talking utter carp. Dunk and ski are both instructors on dry slopes (ski is a BASI 2), as is yoda, and as was easiski in a previous life - so all have pelnty of experience of beginners on dryslopes. Also read Michelle's thread in "The piste" for Gray's recent conversion at Bowles for first hand views from a less experienced end of the spectrum, and I see every week the enthusiasm of the 4-7 year olds who come on the slope after us.

There's no disagreement that sliding in the mountains is much preferable, but that's not an option in Essex - so what's the next best thing? Lessons on a dryslope to get technique basics and practice time to get it secured. Sure if someone is timid, nervous and prone to burst into tears at the first danger of a broken nail, then dryslopes are probably not the solution (but then is skiing really for them either?). Hence me deliberately rather overegging the potential injury scenario at the top of this thread - if you expect to have to be careful you are far less likely to have over-high expectations dashed and far more likely to enjoy your definite achivements.

Quote:
Dryslopes are outdoors, where the weather is cold, wet or windy
And mountains are not? I got way colder inside the gloomy fridge that is MK than most of the time on our local slope throughout last winter. I can only assume Whitegold has significant problems skiing in a straight line with such a huge chip on his shoulder.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 25-11-06 12:59; edited 1 time in total
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Whitegold, If you have such a problem skiing on a dry slope then you obviously have very poor technique indeed! rolling eyes Also, if you think Dendix is cheap it shows you know nothing about it at all!

As veeeight, said you need to do a course if you're a beginner, however since no-one suggested a one lesson fix, then the observation was fairly unnecessary. If people have done a course on plastic and can turn and plough and go up a lift etc. They've jumped over the first two days on snow. If they're beginners then the first time on snow is a shock because it's so slidy - but they soon adapt. No-one who's properly taught should fall over frequently as a beginner - that's only if their instructor is crap! Twisted Evil Of course they need to go back a stage on snow for the first time, surely every instructor on a dry slope knows to warn their students about this?

However Megamum, is not a beginner, Brentwood has a good rep, and don't be put off by peeps that don't know. ski, & Dunk, bothe work on plastic slopes, so see a lot more than doom merchants like the above. I worked on plastic for a couple of years, and raced on it, and race trained on it. It is true you can get hurt - but come on - bruises and scrapes - that's not hurt!
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veeeight, Points taken however most dry slopes are steeper than snow beginner areas due to the increased friction and a plough should not be soley used as a method to slow down.
The point about leg rotation is very good but if I remember correctly as speed increases you use more pressure to turn the ski, therefore if you learn rotation based you then have to learn to apply pressure and if you learn pressure based you can then learn more rotation skills.
Personally I will always prefer to teach people on snow who have had at least four hours on plastic first. As scottp, said just to able to handle the equipment for a start.
scottp, I think I've just been lucky on plastic a few good falls, one witnessed byGrahamN, this summer, sorry about your thumb.
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Dunk, thanks but feel a bit supid fallling down at 3 mph on a flat slope. after not having a pair of skis on since last year and watching one of the instructors doing drills i was truly bummed about how bad my technique is so tried too hard to imitate the instructor and what do you know i fell over. Really tough to do short linked turns without skidding, the plastic really shows up poor technique

but for a beginner maybe that isnt such a good thing....
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easiski wrote:
Whitegold, If you have such a problem skiing on a dry slope then you obviously have very poor technique indeed! rolling eyes Also, if you think Dendix is cheap it shows you know nothing about it at all!


I have skied on many dryslopes. I am an advanced carver. Dryslopes are gash. They are rubbish to ski, painful to fall on, and the weather is often grim. They are unsuitable for beginners, because they offer such a low-quality skiing experience.
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