 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
hi,just got back from an hour at sno zone milton keynes,do you think that there slopes are classed as blue? cheers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
notverygoodatskiing, well given its 170 meter length I'd say the most it could be would be a 'bl' 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
i was thinking more about the steepness,what do you think?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
The colour grading system is relative to the mountain, not an 'absolute' standard, and some resorts push the gradings a bit (or a lot) anyway, so one mountains green, could be a blue elsewhere, or even a red. Also it's not just gradient, but the length of that gradient, and the width that play a factor, so a wide, undulating piste could be a blue, but at times it might dip down a bit more steeply than another narrower piste that had a constant gradient and yet was a red.
I'd say the xscape pistes are no steeper than a reasonable green, maybe a blue at a push. However their crowded and cramped nature really makes them very different to the genuine article.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
thanx for the help,im going with some people to belle plagne who arnt very confident and wanted them to experience a blue so they know what to expect,but as you say,its very crowded and cramped so dosnt mean much anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
notverygoodatskiing, I'm sure someone will be along shortly, who knows Belle Plagne and can recommend a good slope to begin on. (probably a green!) 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oh surely not a green - easily a blue I would have thought. If it were all like the bottom half it would be a green. (Of course some countries don't have greens).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
MK Snowdome is a green or easy blue. A woefully short one, at that.
As an aside, this raises an interesting point. There are no globally-accepted standards for what constitutes a green, blue, red, black or double-diamond piste. Someone or some body should sit down and formulate concrete criteria. For example, a black run might have, say, an average gradient above 30 degrees. Such a framework would reduce ambiguity. Of course, there will be winners and losers, but the everyday punter would be much better informed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Whitegold, I agree absolutely, but most resorts wouldn't want to do this. Almost regardless of the shape of the mountain resorts tend to mark their runs so there are more blues, a decent number of reds and some blacks. They think this brings in the punters. For instance: looking at the piste map you would think LDA would be ideal for a low intermediate, but actually (because we mark like Val D) it's brilliant for beginners and tops for properly advanced skiers with a massive amount of black skiing, most of which isn't marked or ever pisted! On the map we only have about 12 black runs! The blues are great though, but might get boring for someone who couldn't do anything else. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
We were discussing grading of slopes after a trip to Alpe d'Huez which has an absurd green slope - very easy almost all the way down EXCEPT for the 10-12 metre very steep and icy section. There were always heaps of people at the bottom who had tried to snowplough down it and fallen over. Of course now I'd just go straight down it, but a beginner wouldn't want to do this, so I think the grading was inappropriate because a green slope should be OK for a beginner to snowplough all the way down. This was a green gradient but not a beginner slope.
The slopes in Alpe d'H are, allegedly, graded according to the average gradient, so even a green slope can have a nasty bit in it. And yet one of the reds was actually quite easy. And the hardest slope I've ever skied was a red, not a black, due to the snow conditions. Maybe they should have a standard for greens that is "snowplough safe" i.e. you can make safe snowplough turns all the way down, and grade the others on average gradient.
Snowdomes are different and I don't think they can be graded. On gradient they are green or easy blue, but the snow surface is more consistent, there aren't bumps but there are a lot more people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
It couldn't be average gradient for the whole run - you might have a very tough 1/3 and a flat run-out (for example). It would have to be more like - gradient of toughest 200 metres. But there are so many factors I'm not sure if one criterion would be adequate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
At one resort (I think it was La Thuile) the runs had their maximum gradient posted at the top and at all junctions. This made it easier to tell if there were any 'nasty surprises' which as beginners we all found quite reassuring.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I have a clear recollection of a long thread on the subject of grading consistency some time ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
I would also argue that some runs change their difficulty as conditions change, I remember doing annoying runs like the Col De Fresse and Verte in Val d'Isere out of necessity to get to other places. Both were green and frustratingly flat but late one afternoon part of them had mogulled up and it sent me flying as I expected it to be soft snow!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
snowball, Out runs are graded as an average - it always seems to me that they start and stop the grading points where it's most advantageous to them (the lift company).
AxsMan, that's a really good idea - wish we did it as it would stop so many peeps either getting stuck at the top of the higher village lifts and more especially Les Gours which is marked blue but is really very flat green (polling) with nasty dark red bits. Well they're not nasty for an experienced skier, but they are for a novice!
nondescript, I reckon that applies to almost all runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Just been reading a bit in one of the ski mags that mentioned resorts that are putting signs up with average & max steepness, that might be a better option.
Say you're at a junction and there's 2 routes down 1 is a 20deg ave slope with a short 30deg section and the other is a 28deg ave, 30max slope which would you pick?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
FenlandSkier, but will they tell you other useful things, like what the scenery's like, and which run has the better views - now that would be service. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Never mind which one runs past a bar
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
The average and max gradient sounds like a really good idea. I would guess they would most likely do the gradient as a %, judging by the warning signs I've seen in the past?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Average and max gradient would be excellent, except I'm not sure a beginner venturing out on their own would be able to interpret them. Maybe this plus a snowplough friendly sign if you can plough right down? I'd find that very helpful - it is the max gradient that would be of most interest in deciding whether to attempt something.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, most people think they are skiing steeper slopes than they are. On the other hand many people confuse %-slope markings with degrees. (eg 70% = approx 35º). If they are the same people I suppose it might come out about right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think I remember the max gradient markings as being % (but I could be wrong), however although at the beginning of the week we didn't know what % meant 'steep' after a couple of days we did get used to it and could judge an unknown run in relation to those we had skied. It took away the fear factor, which made us all more confident, which in itself no-doubt helped us to ski better - a virtuous circle if you will. Sadly La Thuile is the only place I've seen this system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I seem to remember a previous thread where the standardisation of grading of slopes was discussed before. I seem to remember the conclusion was that none of us could agree on what it should be!
Its no wonder the French, Italians, Austrians, Swiss, etc can't agree either!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The piece is in the Nov issue of DMS&S, page 14.
The sign in Pinzolo (Trentino area of the Dolomites) says:
Lunghezza ML 1130
Dislivello ML 280
Pendenza Media %24,7
Pendenza Max %43
Apparantly Highland Bowl, Aspen does a leaflet with the max&ave gradients for its steep ungroomed runs as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Yes, I remember that thread too. Since then I've picked up the Red Dog (?) guides to Val D and Courchevel and they grade all the red and black runs in resort as 1, 2 or 3 star i.e. this is an easy red, this is a difficult black. If they extended that to blue and green runs too it would be very helpful indeed. Obviously expert skiers don't need to worry about things like that, but it's the unfamiliarity of a new area that is problematic, especially since the gradings are all internal comparisons. If there were some way of judging in advance how an unfamiliar slope compares to one with which you are familiar - whether by standardisation of markings or displaying average and max gradients (which amounts to the same thing I suppose) - then I think there would be an awful lot fewer people getting out of their depth owing to lack of info and more people confident that they are about to tackle something that is within their capabilities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
eng_ch, couldn't agree more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I was thinking about this some more and it seems to me there's a commercial argument in favour of standardisation too. I realise that many resorts (reputedly) want to have x% of each colour grade to attract people, but I think if there were a standardised system, resorts w/could attract a more targeted market, resulting in more repeat business. In other words, if, for arguments' sake, say Chamonix's pistes were only marked red and black then it would attract mostly advanced and expert skiers, who would enjoy the terrain, have an excellent trip and want to return. Whereas if a "standard red" piste is marked blue and a low intermediate consequently though it was within their capabilities, found out too late that it wasn't and as a result hated skiing there because they were out of their depth all the time, they wouldn't return and, in the worst case, would never get back on skis again. But then I've never understood the thinking behind always targeting new customers and neglecting existing ones. <shrug>
[Caveats: I've never been to Chamonix and I use the phrase "standard red" knowing full well there is currently no such thing. The example is for illustrative purposes only ]
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
There's been a few discussions about this before. I think that ski resorts should give punters a bit more information about runs, as they do vary an awful lot from top to bottom. I can see (for practical and commercial reasons) why it’s very difficult to come up with standards, but from my point of view (being a fairly competent but very cautious skier) I’d like to know if the red run I’m embarking on suddenly turns into a black for a while half way down.
For what it’s worth (which is most probably not a lot), I’ve had a bit of a think about this and come up with a simple way of giving skiers more information about the runs. I don’t think this is already in use anywhere – well, not that I’ve seen anyway. I apologize if someone else has mentioned this before – I promise I haven’t copied your idea – just a case of ‘great minds…’ and all that.
Basically, currently most resorts (that I’ve been to) mark their runs with appropriately coloured signposts – the ones I’ve seen have been coloured circles with the number of the run in the middle. Each run has a particular contour/hardness profile, so my idea is to print this around the outside of the sign. I’ve drawn a few examples HERE! (sorry if this doesn’t link properly but it’s the first time I’ve tried).
If you can see the examples, what we have is, the main run colour and it’s number in the middle, and round the outside (starting at the top and working clockwise) we have the contour/hardness profile. So, for example, we can see that run number 40 is primarily a blue run but in the middle it has a red section, with a little black section a little later, ending in a bit of a red followed by a green to the finish.
Anyway, it’s just a thought. It’s strange the things you think about, on a slow day at work – especially with the skiing season rapidly approaching.
Laters, Colin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Additional…..I know that the grading will still be subjective, with regards to each resort, and it doesn’t address the original question, but with this method it would at least give the skiers the chance to choose to undertake a run based on its entire graded length, and not just a general benchmark. It could also stop some skiers from getting into trouble and annoying more experienced skiers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
