how would you ski e.g.heavy wet snow/crud without unweighting
You can't. All good skiing will involve "unweigting". Just which flavour (up, down, terrain) will depend on the terrain and situation.
ssh's retraction turns are a form of "down-unweighting" for want of a better phrase.
Quote:
I assume that the world cup guys can plant with precision no matter what the speed. Is this right?
Yes. Although, in DH, it's there mainly for balance (like a high wire artist), in GS, it's more of a timing and recovery aid (more of a pole touch), and in slalom, it's still there, but mainly a pole touch, and a plant when they need to use the torque from it.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Linds, Well we would be like a couple of comedians (iennes)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ssh, Floppy the Snotman, is typically tongue in cheek - he doesn't really bob - he flops.
ssh's retraction turns are a form of "down-unweighting"
veeeight, Havent got the foggiest what this means
I just find the heavy/wet crud such hard work and end up with legs so tense they then hurt like mad
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Linds wrote:
Quote:
retraction turns
ssh, You can give me a personal demonstration at the EoSB
It would be my delight!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 14-11-06 20:48; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
Linds wrote:
I just find the heavy/wet crud such hard work and end up with legs so tense they then hurt like mad
Bummer! I think we may be able to help with that a bit at the EOSB. I don't know how easiski arranges things, yet, but it would be fun to go out and play with these kinds of things...
The key is to move with the skis, btw. Easier shown than written, I'm sure!
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Quote:
Easier shown than written
ssh, I think the above thread has proven that
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veeeight, I don't think it goes over most peoples' heads if it's in everyday language (gets on hobby horse again). It only gets "epic-like" when terminal technobabble sets in.
ssh, there we are - your intermediate off piste group started already! If the snow at Val T is like last year then we should have plenty of heavy wet crud to play in every afternoon.
Linds, the above snow will always be more tiring that piste. It may not be you.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
ssh, It sounds as if Ron LeMaster was saying that different things work for different skiers ? It would also make sense that a racer would choose appropriate 'cross under' or 'cross over' (and other techniques) depending on the course they have to ski ?
While technique is obviously important, I recall a F1 team manager on TV making a point about race drivers and tennis players. He pointed out that if you watch the top 50 warm up at Wimbeldon there will be very little technical difference between them. What makes the difference is the top players or racers strength of mind when everything is on the line. I think this is where the top ski racers have the advantage, Mr Miller being a prime example. I guess this also follows through into recreational skiing?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
david@mediacopy, most things are 90% mental. If you know in theory what you need to do.. you have to believe you can do it. Look at the hill... imagine yourself going down it.. find your lines... and see yourself doing it.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Floppy the Snotman, didn't see too much bobbing at the PSB...smooth, dude, smooooooooooooth
A very interesting thread...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
RoboGeek,
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
There is a school of thought emerging that suggests skiers should use poles which are roughly 2 to 6 inches too short. This encourages the skier to lean forward during turns.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
david@mediacopy, to some extent, I think this is accurate, but there are also variables based on physiology (more like golf/tennis than F1, I think).
He drew careful lines between what is common and what is variable based on preferences of one kind or another.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Whitegold, oh? Do tell. Somehow, I don't buy this... But, it would be interesting to hear more about that....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
veeeight wrote:
paulhothersall, Come on, contribute to the debate from the racing perspective
OK, while I have better things to do like pack for heading out this weekend, and work out a way of getting my 215cm downhill skis in modern ski bag...............
Ok first things first.
A poleplant is useful to maintain timing of body movements throughout the turn. In the comfort zone, for most skiers it is not required. Doing it [correctly] helps to maintain good technique.
Bode is in a different sport almost to basically all of us on this thread, his actual talent helping him through various "poor" technique. This is because he tactically skis close to the limits of what is possible. This level of control is out of scope for us, however we can still llook and learn.
The actual point of a plant is to make a pole touch the snow. It is not to contort the body at the end of the turn. skiers should not need to be looking at where the pole touches, mearly feeling where and when is happens either by concious effort or automatic.
The dragging of the pole on the snow, and the point of touch etc, sub consciously [after practice to learn] give the body a cue to maintaining both balance and motion sequencing. the former is easiest to understand, the latter requires a bit more thought. Cue discussion on different ability of processing inputs etc, and what thinking effort can be diverted to [tactical decisions about future turns normally, automatic trained response to current stimulus]. If anyone really is interested in this, I will have more time later to chat/explain, at least my opinion.
Racers use a [double or single] pole plant for both reason. It rebalances them [typically slightly less in the back seat], and for say typical bode leads to [in my opinion] the most active movements he does during his turn. He then, like most skiers at the limit of their current comfort/ability level lives with the turn from new edge engagement until complete. Some racers do this as once they choose the point at which to engage they simply cannot divert thinking time to much correction. Normal mortals don't have the input processing to do both. A race course is very unforgiving, due to gate set, ruts, ice etc.
I shall have a think about other things, and read others posts when I get a bit of time tomorrow.
Anyway shorter poles, or normal poles held below the grip on the shaft, do have a good effect on learning pole planting and bringing weight forward.
Another relevent item is to look at the angle on the pole plant in a racer, the position it is planted relative to the outside ski tip (downhill ski at that point for those of you that think in that terminology) and the lateral angle to the snow when it happens.
The racer typically plants earlier, before the "release point" a good distance from the tip sideways.
OK, so what about upweighting/downweighting/retraction etc?
Well for simplicity think of the pole plant as a drumbeat. The differential of each plant, and even the corrective motions [not fancy contortions to an "optimal" plant position] involve a blend of all the movements.
Ie reducing the amount of counter (some call it return to center), the reduction in pressure on the ski by decrease of steering angle/leg extension/impulse reduction/weight transfer to another ski or even things like leg rotation to introduce a skid.
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Epic ski post quality control
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various wander off the point [ CHECK ]
Long post, to multiple questions at once [ CHECK ]
Obvious mention of lots of equipment [ CHECK ]
Imply full timeskier [ CHECK ]
only skim read the thread, and post after too much to drink [ CHECK ]
talk about racing and compare demigod world cup skiers to normal people [ CHECK ]
open ended post [ CHECK ]
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Epic ski post quality control
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ssh, easiski, I can see it's pretty much absent from those pics, and that a more active inside knee would prevent it, but that tendency is something that's been noticed sometimes in my skiing
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Great stuff, well put. Even I had to re-read your last 2 paragraphs, and am still pondering!
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Epic ski post quality control
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various wander off the point [ CHECK ]
Long post, to multiple questions at once [ CHECK ]
Obvious mention of lots of equipment [ CHECK ]
Imply full timeskier [ CHECK ]
only skim read the thread, and post after too much to drink [ CHECK ]
talk about racing and compare demigod world cup skiers to normal people [ CHECK ]
open ended post [ CHECK ]
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Epic ski post quality control
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Yes but nodoby has mentioned PMTS or PSIA yet. Then we could have total stangulation by analyzation in such an Epic fashion that the reader would think skiing is only about these two organisations. Somebody also please advise TGR to send someone over and post some sort of profanity.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
slikedges, I couldn't help noticing at MK that you sit down and back a bit. therefore I suspect this tendency in your own skiing is the result of the lower leg straightening out when you counter due to your hip position. Not sure about this (I only tried it in the apartment), and would have to check on snow. Try the following: holding onto something (newell post or whatever), stand fairly upright but flexed and introduce counter and angulation. You should find that you do NOT get an automatic A frame. Then try the same is a rather sitting position and you SHOULD find the A frame appearing on it's own - well this happened when I tried it!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
It may not be you
easiski, Now you tell me
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
DB wrote:
Yes but nodoby has mentioned PMTS or PSIA yet. Then we could have total stangulation by analyzation in such an Epic fashion that the reader would think skiing is only about these two organisations. Somebody also please advise TGR to send someone over and post some sort of profanity.
I can get to that if you want....
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Have heard it mentioned many times so forgive my ignorance, but what is an A-frame (in skiing terms)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Floppy the Snotman, when your lower legs are closer at the knees than they are at the ankles. It means that you are edging your outside ski more than your inside ski. An extreme A frame means that you are blocking your outside ski from reaching high edge angles.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
easiski, you're right, that's what happens! A throwback perhaps to a remaining influence in my skiing that I was told (about 15yr ago) that to angulate I ought to try to sit on a stool in the centre of my turn . I also find that if I have my weight more on the outside ski, my inside knee is more active and the A frame is less accentuated.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
slikedges, Right - then we know how to fix it! I used to teach angulation much earlier in the students' skiing career than I do now (of course the skis make a difference), and this is mainly for exactly that reason. I just found that it tended to make peeps sit a bit. In recent years I've been concentrating much more on stance and balance, and lateral movement in the form of angulation can come in when these two things are right.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Re the pole plants:
Here's a slow motion sequence on YouTube - the muzak is horrid, but in slow motion, you can see that when the going gets tough, the tough pole plant. This is the tough and steep section.
You can tell they are planting rather than touching, evident by the amount of bend in the pole. There'a also a double pole plant in there.
veeeight, excellent video. And the music made me smile, too!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
ssh wrote:
fatbob, retraction turns in heavy wet snow/crud is actually a pretty bomb-proof turn, and you can be going very slowly to do it.
Not sure this actually answers fatbob's question
fatbob wrote:
how would you ski e.g.heavy wet snow/crud without unweighting unless you were abolutely maching it?
Retraction and extension are both unweighting techniques, so whats the answer
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rich wrote:
ssh wrote:
fatbob, retraction turns in heavy wet snow/crud is actually a pretty bomb-proof turn, and you can be going very slowly to do it.
Not sure this actually answers fatbob's question
fatbob wrote:
how would you ski e.g.heavy wet snow/crud without unweighting unless you were abolutely maching it?
Retraction and extension are both unweighting techniques, so whats the answer
Ok, so this is true. I understood his question to be unweighting as in up-unweighting. I don't think of slow retraction turns as being a lot of unweighting, but I won't argue the point. I also think that you can do it by using the energy created by the ski decambering and rebounding, too, without the skier actually doing anything to "unweight".
All of these easier shown than written...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ssh wrote:
rich wrote:
ssh wrote:
fatbob, retraction turns in heavy wet snow/crud is actually a pretty bomb-proof turn, and you can be going very slowly to do it.
Not sure this actually answers fatbob's question
fatbob wrote:
how would you ski e.g.heavy wet snow/crud without unweighting unless you were abolutely maching it?
Retraction and extension are both unweighting techniques, so whats the answer
Ok, so this is true. I understood his question to be unweighting as in up-unweighting. I don't think of slow retraction turns as being a lot of unweighting, but I won't argue the point. I also think that you can do it by using the energy created by the ski decambering and rebounding, too, without the skier actually doing anything to "unweight".
All of these easier shown than written...
I deliberately used the universal term & I am very familar with down-unweighting, it being one of the features of alpine snowboard carving.
I'm from a slightly luddite school that says it doesn't matter which is technically superior (up or down) as long as the end result is fun.
So, if I "surf" from turn to turn in the mashed potatoes, am I "unweighting" by your definition? It's difficult to decamber a ski without getting some "unweighting" benefit in the transition between turns...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
I'm from a slightly luddite school that says it doesn't matter which is technically superior (up or down) as long as the end result is fun.Sat Nov 18, 06 0:35
Indeed, it's all about having tools in your toolkit. Having the luxury of both means you can apply whatever is appropriate at any given time/terrain etc.
Down unweighting can be compared to just dropping a tennis ball before the serve, you've got a finite time to precisely hit it in the sweet spot, whereas if you up unweight the tennis ball by throwing it up in the air inititally, you can then have a little more time to get your eye/hand/arm co-ordination in and control the whole process a little more.
Really this thread has gone a bit too epic for me but how would you ski e.g.heavy wet snow/crud without unweighting unless you were abolutely maching it?
Re poleplanting - I learnt at the PSB that there is a certain speed beyond which it is futile for me to attempt it as chances are it will completely throw me off rather than help. I assume that the world cup guys can plant with precision no matter what the speed. Is this right?
Heavy wet snow: I suppose if you must pivot your skis you need to get them out of the snow a bit. As for my solution: long skis, high speeds, and good balance.
Pole planting - Pole planting at high speed is one way to break your wrist or tear your arm off. If you watch the video you will see that the pole planting is a means to an end, there for the effect it has on timing, balance, and putting the body in a forward aggressive position.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
slikedges, i have to give you props/kudos and disagree a bit with my friend ssh. two years ago i attended a level 400 clinic (trainer accredidation) with psia and we spent a great deal of time discussing the very fact you mention. "A-framing" most certainly can be caused by EITHER rotation or counter rotation.
ssh, as you work towards taking future psia cert exams i would encourage you to be careful with language. in the photos of bob he may be mildly countered and that is different than countering. i know you love the technical side of skiing and are working towards higher certification. there is most certainly a difference.
and......countering or being countered can most assuredly lead to "A" framing. as can over rotating.
it's funny that folks have made the "epic" reference. that is the very reason i have essentially quit posting at epic and/or in instructional forums. i really have no desire to argue these points and inevitably that's what it denigrates into. i guess i came to the conclusion that if someone wants the input of a full time level III psia cert they can come to winter park and seek my eye, my experience, and services.
is that a bit jaded? certainly. it sure beats arguing with some yahoo at epic.
i figured i could jump on ssh a little because when he first dabbled in ski instruction i hired/trained the guy
After all it is free
After all it is free
Great discussion, and I have to say that I agree with you 100%, Veeeight--unweighting is an essential skill for great skiing, in all of its many "flavours" (yes, I'm bilingual enough to speak British ). But I would not call it a fundamental or default movement, in that it is not needed in all, or even most, turns.
I unweight for two reasons. (I should explain that by "unweight" I am referring to an active, intentional movement meant to reduce the pressure on my skis to less than my body weight--so it does not include the inevitable reduction in pressure as g-forces diminish at the end of turns.) The first reason I might unweight is for fun. Let's face it--jumping, floating through the air, has appealed to most of us since we first started bouncing up and down on our beds as kids. The second reason I would unweight is to make it easier to redirect my skis--to twist them into a skid for braking, or to steer them quickly to a new direction for any reason.
That's it. Since I don't generally redirect my skis in the transition by default, I don't usually need or want to unweight them. In linked pure-carved turns, I'll retract my legs as I come out of a turn, absorbing some of the pressure at the bottom of the turn and passing through "neutral" in a low stance, and then re-extending my legs to develop pressure early in the next turn. These movements cause my body (center of mass) to move in a flat trajectory down the hill, allowing me to work my legs accurately against a stable, strong core.
But when I do need to redirect--often in extreme steeps, perhaps in crud, frequently in a race course--I'll call on all of my options. Classic "up-unweighting" (down-UP-down) and "down-unweighting" (up-DOWN-up), "rebound unweighting" from the energy stored in bent skis, and "terrain unweighting" using the springboard of a bump or the fallaway over a roll--all of these flavors (pardon my American) have their uses.
For what it's worth, even in the "old days" when unweighting was more fundamentally important (because we needed to redirect on almost every turn), I took exception to the "plant-up" sequence of conventional wisdom. "Tall-Touch-Turn. . .Tall-Touch-Turn. . ."--that was the mantra that (to me) much more accurately described the appropriate timing of the "up" movement and the pole plant, in a way that carried the energy from one turn into the next.
And what about that crud? For me, the same rule applies--if I need to redirect my skis in the transition, I'll unweight--often more forcefully than on groomed snow, to get my skis completely out of the stuff. Since most recreational skiers still rely on a good bit of redirection in the transition, and since it's even harder to do that when your skis are caught in the heavy crap, exaggerated unweighting is often the only way for them to ski these tough conditions. But when I can, I still prefer to keep my skis traveling the direction they're pointed even in--especially in, actually--crud. That means not redirecting, so no need to unweight. I'll stay lower, with a bit more "functional tension," especially in my core, and drive my skis right through the stuff.
If that's "too epic" for anyone, . . . sorry!
Best regards,
Bob Barnes
PS--By the way, hi everyone! This is my first post here, although since those are pictures of me above, I guess I'm not really a total newcomer. Actually, I've looked in on this forum before, but since this section does not show up on the menu until you register, I thought Snowheads was just a trip reports and travel guide site. My mistake! Good to see you all, and I hope to see you on the snow some time!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Welcome to snowHeads, Bob, great first post.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Rusty Guy, thanks for your input! I guess one thing that's being reaffirmed here is that everything is interrelated, so that it's not just about countering or not countering, not just about sitting back, not just having too much weight on the inside ski, not changing edges simultaneously, having a lazy inside leg or over-rotated outside one - it's all of them, and in each individual any fault may be predominantly due to any or all. Hence, as you say there is no substitute for a trained eye and personal prescription!
Bob Barnes, not too epiccy! In fact, a brilliant, clear-minded and insightful first post . Thanks and Welcome to snowHeads
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